Mormo-Wiccans Wiccans1 ======== PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/26/93 4:36 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 04/26/1993 We have discussed the Mormon Wiccan parallels at length. There are quite a few of us Wiccans in Mormonism. Before July, I want to make sure that everyone has had an opportunity to look at the Wiccan data for themselves and come to their own conclusion on just how Mormonism relates to the archtypal modern pagan religion. Unless anyone else has some suggestions, I am going to jump right into a rehashed comparison of the modern coven with the Nauvoo prayer circle. This is just because we haven't really discussed them since last summer. dizzy dance proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/27/93 10:24 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 04/26 6:23 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Since I'm new, I'm glad you'll be rehashing. This sounds like a fascinating subject. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/27/93 10:26 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 04/27 12:53 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: REBECCA BOSTICK (DSMG69A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Hello again, Perhaps I should have jumped a bit further down the subject list before replying. Please rehash the discussion, I'm still trying to swallow the idea of mormons in a coven. It looks as though you've got an eager Wiccan audience waiting... Rebecca PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/27/93 11:44 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 04/27/1993 Cindy I know what you mean about this being an exciting subject. You should have seen us last summer when this all started to come out! The parallels between Wicca and Mormonism are many and run to the core of the traditions, I think. As I said, Andy (where are you?) and I only started to work this out in a rigorous way as of last summer. That's when we read SPIRAL DANCE. You see, we are kind of novices when it comes to Wicca. By the way, do you have any recommended readings for wet behind the ears witches? The Nauvoo period of the LDS Church is very instructive. Joseph started up small working groups for the purpose of spreading the temple rites. These were powerful egalitarian groups that enjoyed marvelous blessings, men and women alike. Joseph ruled the Church from within these bodies for a time. After his death, the all male quorums reasserted their ruling power. That was the real beginning of authoritarian, corporate leadership in the Church. Joseph's working groups were called "anointed quorums". It is now clear that these groups bore all of the earmarks of a modern witch coven. Is this what you would like to hear about? Bridget and the fifty poocahs proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/27/93 10:23 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 04/27 12:02 PM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy I know what you mean about this being an exciting subject. You should have seen us last summer when this all started to come out! The parallels between Wicca and Mormonism are many and run to the core of the traditions, I think. As I said, Andy (where are you?) and I only started to work this out in a rigorous way as of last summer. That's when we read SPIRAL DANCE. You see, we are kind of novices when it comes to Wicca. By the way, do you have any recommended readings for wet behind the ears witches? The Nauvoo period of the LDS Church is very instructive. Joseph started up small working groups for the purpose of spreading the temple rites. These were powerful egalitarian groups that enjoyed marvelous blessings, men and women alike. Joseph ruled the Church from within these bodies for a time. After his death, the all male quorums reasserted their ruling power. That was the real beginning of authoritarian, corporate leadership in the Church. Joseph's working groups were called "anointed quorums". It is now clear that these groups bore all of the earmarks of a modern witch coven. Is this what you would like to hear about? Bridget and the fifty poocahs proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/27/93 10:24 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 04/27 4:06 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: REBECCA BOSTICK (DSMG69A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS A reading list for "wet behind the ears" witches... All of Starhawk's books, "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler, "The Holy Book of Women's Mysteries" by Z. Budapest, "The Witches Goddess" and "TheWitches Way" by Janet and Stewart Farrar. And something with a title which escapes me, a little introductory book by Scott Cunningham. Happy Reading! PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/28/93 7:34 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 04/28 12:23 PM TO: KENNETH WOZNY (CTGV57A) FROM: JOHN WISE (RDCW86A) SUBJECT: MORMO{XTIANS Ken-- Being somewhat new to *P and all, I have no idea what this "mormo" "wicca" "xtian" cra- er, uh, stuff, is. Can you fill me in? (Thumbnail sketch, of course.) Not thinking he's going to like this at all, JOHN PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/28/93 7:35 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 04/28 5:15 PM TO: JOHN WISE (RDCW86A) FROM: MATTHEW BEGIN (PMHR30A) SUBJECT: MORMO{XTIANS John... In time you'll see what some of our resident BB people are into. Matt in Mass.... Church fence sitter PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 04/29/93 5:40 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 04/28 11:59 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: WARREN LATHE III (KFVW57A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Since I didn't participate last summer, I am looking forward to you rehashing it this time. Please do. ***Trey PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/01/93 1:19 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: DSMG69A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/01/1993 Rebecca I got a further list of beginner's books from Lana's post. The Spiral Dance by Starhawk Woman's Rituals by Barbara Walker To Know by Jade The Gaia Tradition by Kisma Stepanich Earth God Rising by Richardson The Wheels of Life by Anodea Judith Creative Visualization by Shakti Gawain The Goddess Celebrates by Diane Stein The Great Cosmic Mother by Monica Sjoo and Barbara Mor Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Adler Last night I intercepted this transmission from Ayesha Blue on the Goddess and Judeo-Christianity; In a recent telepathic fit, Ceridwen Goddess revealed: CG> G > Another thing you mihgt want to check out, Euphrates. I remember CG> G > reading somewhere that Yaweh, Jehovah, or whatever name yu use fo CG> G > Judeo-Christian God, once had a "bride". There was a Goddess. But CG> G > the system of religous belief became increasingly male-dominated, CG> G > faded in importance until she dissapeared. CG> G > Who knows? Maybe it's time for her to wake up again, maybe you a CG> G > one to do it? CG> G > CG> CG>I know this is an older posting and has probably already been CG>responded to, but Ashtoreth/Asherah/Ishtar/etc (depending on CG>the particular area you lived in during so-called Biblical times) CG>was co-worhsipped in the Temple of Solomon as the wife of Jehovah. Actually it was Ashera that was worshipped along with YHVH at differenttimes within the Temple of Solomon. Astarte/Anath was worshipped as wellbut sporatically. It was PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/01/93 1:20 PM Ashera that was concidered the concort of YHVH.Later the names were dropped and a title was substituted to describe thefemale half of divinity...that being The Shakina. CG>(I think she's been awake, just ignored!) The Shakina has ALWAYS been an intrigal part to Judaism. She's justoccluded by the fact that the Reform, Concervative and Orthodox AshkanazieJews Have discarded Her mysteries. She still plays a large part within the Hasidic, Oriental, and Sephardic Jews. She's never been ignored. She'sjust part of the mystery of Judaism. Blessed Be Ayesha Blue more coming proclus>>>>>>>> PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/01/93 1:32 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/01/1993 -------Bonnie do you remember this stuff?--------- I haven't read Castaneda or Roberts. High Magick has been more my speed. These authors include, but are not limited to Crowley, Wilson, Leary, Godwin, Regardie, and Hyatt. Last summer Wiccadom caught my attention in a big way (trust me, that's an understatement!), thanx to St. Andrew and some great Ladies like Lucinda. That's when we decided that there "really are" some similarities between Witchcraft and Mormonism that need to be addressed. Honestly, I'd been searching for connections like these ever since '85. I even did an anthropology project on it. I really got toasted that time. You see, it is actually quite easy to demonstrate similarities between Mormonism and Paganism. That's been my modus operandi ever since I came to Prodigy. We can certainly do some more of that. But no one had been able to document connections between Mormonism and the archetypal modern pagan tradition, Wicca. Finally, last summer it started to happen. I read, the Toscano's breakthrough book, STRANGERS IN PARADOX. In chapter 16, A Kingdom of Priestesses, they describe what the prayer circle group was like at the time that Joseph instituted the practice. There is much that I could say about this on another occasion. Next on my stack was THE SPIRAL DANCE. It became immediately obvious that the historical prayer circle group had many of the essential qualities of the modern witch coven. Many night's were spent feverishly exchanging correspondence with St. Andrew. We were unsure whether we were ready to bring it to light. We dared suppose that we had found space for the Goddess in Mormon ritual. We were amazed that our view of the Church had been transformed and that this transformation revolved around the prayer circle. Perhaps, we should not have been surprised. Max Pulver has observed that any inquiry into this topic juxtaposes us into a "strange space, a strange world - unlike ours - a world above that opens before us when we enter into the round dance of the disciples, led by Jesus." Sadly, the intimacy of this kind of group work is no longer available to Church Members. The current practice is hardly a shadow of what Joseph intended. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/01/93 1:32 PM Still, I am not as forlorn as the Toscanos. We are planting the seeds. Our very discussion evokes a dizzy ritual. We draw closer, reaching out in a virtual embrace. the sacred dance proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/01/93 9:37 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/01 8:56 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Don't forget Casting the Circle by Diane Stein The Grandmother of Time by Zsuzsanna Budapest (my favorite!) The Holy Book of Women's Mysteries by Budapest PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/01/93 9:40 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/01 8:56 PM TO: ALL FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Why don't we please combine Pagan and Wiccans in this topic? 'Twold make things simpler. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/08/93 11:26 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/08/1993 I have some new data on the Joseph Smith prayer circle groups that I am going to go ahead and discuss, although I am still trying to confirm the source. It seems that the homes of Nauvoo did NOT face east. Six or so houses faced inward towards a common area that was shared by all. Members of these households comprised a prayer circle group. They shared a spiritual and practical intimacy that can only be compared to the extended family of old. On the other hand, it is now clear that these groups were not hierarchical structures that were ruled from the top down. They were egalitarian centers of caring. They shared insights and chores. They built eachothers homes. Each one's talents benefitted the whole group. Their children played together. These groups did their thing outside of the temple precincts, of course. Both Quinn and the Toscanos document how the functions of the quorum were confined to the quorum of the Twelve after the death of the Prophet. We still refer to the Brethren as "The Lord's Anointed", although this term is appropriate for anyone who has been through the temple ceremony. Women were excluded from prayer circle groups very early. Legitimate prayer circle groups were extant in the Church until May 3, 1978, when they were banned in a letter from the First Presidency. Today, prayer circle rites are only conducted within the temple precincts. The current practice is a slight shadow of what it was, having been reduced to a mere ritual exercise in the company of strangers. I think its raining today. proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/08/93 11:31 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/08/1993 My data on the Joseph Smith prayer circles comes primarily from the Toscano's book, STRANGERS IN PARADOX, chapter 16, a Nibley article called THE EARLY CHRISTIAN PRAYER CIRCLE, and a Quinn paper called LATTER-SAINT PRAYER CIRCLES. Quinn has recently given us some more information in an essay called Mormon Women Have Had the Priesthood Since 1843. It is on my reading stack for this summer. So is DRAWING DOWN THE MOON. This illustrates my naivete when it comes to the Craft. While I have had a lifetime to learn the doctrines of Mormonism, my conception of Wiccan teachings has come from my first reading of Starhawk's THE SPIRAL DANCE, and communication with wonderful ladies like Lucinda, Rebecca, and Domi (Druid). Anyone who knows more than me about the emerging Goddess traditions is very welcome to set me straight. In fact, please do set me straight! I am anxiously engaged in a comparative study of Wiccan teachings and practices that requires a greater depth of understanding than I currently possess. I care about Wicca, in fact, I consider myself to be a MormoWiccan. We have a kind of on-line coven around here. I don't think that anyone in the group (You know who you are!) really considers this to be an authentic experience of coven life, as described by Starhawk. This does not mean that this kind of intimate group work was always unavailable to Mormons. The prayer circle groups that were instituted by Joseph in Nauvoo were not unlike a modern coven in practice. When first group was instituted they were called "the anointed quorum." After 1843 the Prophet consulted the Twelve less and governed the Church from within this quorum. Quorum members were instructed to teach the practices to others so that new groups could be established. All of it was conducted outside of the temple. the round dance of the disciples proclus ps United order>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, it there seems to be much more to the united order than we had once thought. This is well illustrated in the next post. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/08/93 11:36 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: DPNG73C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/08/1993 -------------------Welcome to the Coven!------------------- Perfect love and perfect trust, laura You ask, "how exactly do you merge mormonism and paganism?" That's the BIG question and I have enough info on it to boggle anyone's brain. Just hang around here for a while. (Loved your post in HEAVENLY MOTHER, by the way.) I want to address the human aspect of your post first. All too often people get the impression that Mormonism is a closed system with no room for creativity or free thought. As you say, we are often told that "this is the only true church, and that other religions are irrelevant to 'good' LDS folks." This idea is put forward by well meaning, but misguided individuals who think that they are somehow doing the Church a favor by promoting it. History and comparative religion can add depth to our gospel understanding. Now, I am sure that you will agree with me that many members are among the sweetest people imaginable. No problem there. I've wanted to meet someone like you for a long time. There are a lot of former Mormons in pagan, wiccan, and occult circles. Most of us around here want to stay attached to Mormonism though. Are you new to the on-line community? If so, look out! You are already making waves out there. What you post in sincerity will be labeled by dogmatists, probably in this very thread. What an irony. Pagan Mormons cry out against paganism. And it makes me wonder! There are plenty of different models for explaining the pagan parallels with Mormonism. The canned apostasy model just doesn't cut it. For example, it doesn't explain the fact that new mormonish groups arise from time to time, isolated from Mormonism. Well, I have just one more sloppy, unsophisticated thing to say. Please don't leave the Church. Mormonism is big enough to encompass all truth, if we let it. Pagans are on the march. There aren't many of us, but as Andy said, "The pagans are alive and well in the Mormon church, and they are moving forward, armed with some of the strongest testimonies and purest motives that can be found in any religion today." We need you. I hope I didn't scare you off. Would you like to hear more? PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/08/93 11:36 PM proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/09/93 10:10 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/09 12:31 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Banned in 1978????!!!!! I'm an old fogey enough to have been endowed long before that. I don't remember ever being able to prayer circle out of the temple. Boy, was I in la- la land then or what? I am very interested in more details. Was it a true circle or did they indicate the four directions and elements or any fascimile thereof? Did there need to be an equal number of both sexes, or only one sex? Tell me, tell me more. Cindy\who adores the Goddess PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/09/93 10:11 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/09 1:17 PM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy, Proclus may have more info than I do, but here goes.... Brigham Young kicked women out of the Annointed Quorum, and hence out of the non-temple prayer circles, shortly after Joseph Smith's death. Later, when the church was well established in Utah, prayer circles spread beyond the Annointed Quorum, and some women began to take part in them again. But they were still mostly male. As for addressing the four cardinal points, this has never been a part of the prayer circle. By 1978, when the prayer circle was banned, there were so few of them left that nobody really noticed their passing. A word on the temple prayer circle: It is standard to have 12 people in the circle, alternating male and female, arranged in a circle about the alter. A thirteenth person leads the circle in an antiphonal prayer. This arrangement is so close to Wiccan practices as to be absolutely unnerving. \/ andy /\ PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/09/93 10:12 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/09 4:41 PM TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS My point about the four endowment rooms surrounding the celestial room is that there is some resemblance to invoking the four elements or aspects of the Goddess when casting a circle which is creating a sacred and consecrated place. I think the biggest contribution is our acknowledgement of the Goddess, which Hinkley recently reaffirmed. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/09/93 10:15 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/09/1993 Cindy Could you give a few more details on Hinkley's reaffirmation of the Goddess? thanx proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/09/93 10:16 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/09 5:29 PM TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A) FROM: BONNIE WRIGHT (FVNM12A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Andy; Here in Dallas, we have smaller prayer circles, as there are less people going through sessions. Unnerving? Nah, there is nothing new, just older things recycled. bonnie PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/09/93 10:18 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/09 12:31 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: ALAN BEGHTEL (WPWP12A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS i w'd like to here more! if you've got the time!!! PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/09/93 10:18 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/09 12:44 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Proclus -- At last we begin! How about some idea of the way the early temples were constructed, i.e., moving through four rooms on a progressive journey and ending up in the middle, a holy and sacred place consecrated for communion with the divine? This sounds suspiciously familiar with ideas on casting the circle. Even today with our more efficient>> temples lacking the barest hint of architectural beauty or awe-inspiring grandeur, still have the endowment rooms circling the celestial room. Comments? Cindy\who has always been a witch of some sort PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/09/93 10:20 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/09 7:44 AM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: BONNIE WRIGHT (FVNM12A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy; The Dallas Temple has an octagon shaped celestial room, with 4 ordinance rooms surrounding it. For me, 8 is symbolic of eternity. bonnie (symbolically, a listener...) PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/09/93 10:23 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: FVNM12A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/09/1993 Bonnie I think we had the same octogonal celestial room in the Chicago temple. The arrangement of the rooms in these new smaller six spired structures is a reflection of the cabalistic tree of life. More Later proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/10/93 11:13 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/09 11:54 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Sure! Here goes: Hinckley's statements re Goddess at Women's Broadcast Sept 1992: "Here and there, prayers have been offered to our Mother in Heaven. This started in private prayer, and is beginning to spread to prayers offered in some of our meetings. It was Eliza R. Snow who wrote the words, 'Truth is reason, truth eternal, tells me I've a mother there.' It has been said that the prophet JS made no correction to what S. Snow had written. Therefore, we have a Mother in Heaven. Therefore, some assume that we may appropriately pray to her. Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. THAT DOCTRINE RESTS WELL WITH ME" (emphasis mine). Hinckley then goes on to state why he thinks it is "inappropriate" to pray to Her. His final statement is: "I suppose those who use this expression and who try to further its use are well-meaning, but there are misguided. The fact that we do not pray to our Mother in Heaven in no way belittles or denigrates her. None of us knows anything about her." I take great exception to his final remarks. If the gender was the opposite, Hinckley would feel very differently. Cindy\who adores the Goddess PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/10/93 11:13 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/10 4:38 PM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: REBECCA BOSTICK (DSMG69A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy, Thanks for the quotes....very enlightening, indeed! I wonder why (rhetorical question here) they feel so strongly about acknowledging the Father, but not the Mother? Kinda like who came first, the chicken or the egg? -Rebecca (who will drop your pamphlet in the mail tomorrow!) PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/10/93 11:18 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/10/1993 Cindy As you may know, Michael Quinn has documented the plummeting significance of the prayer circle in Mormon ritual practice. On May 3, 1978 Joseph's idea of the anointed quorum was dealt a final death blow when the First Presidency announced that all prayer circles except those conducted as part of the endowment ceremony in the temples were to be immediately discontinued. I remember when this statement was first read. I was an inquisitive boy. What in the world, I thought, are people in the Church doing praying in circles. How come I had never seen it. It sounded pretty peculiar to me. I asked the adults and was puzzled by the evasive answers that I got. It seems that it was something that went on in the temple and they couldn't talk about it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why, I asked, are they doing this outside of the temple? I thought these things were supposed to stay inside. I was told that some of the older members did it. I was also told that I had asked enough questions. Years later, Julie and I started our own family. When we bless the food, we hold hands in a circle. I have felt a twinge of guilt on account of this, but we continue to do it because I refuse to let the changing world of authoritarian response infringe upon the intimacy of our family worship. Interestingly, Julie doesn't seem to have a problem with it. veils proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/10/93 11:21 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/10 1:05 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: BONNIE WRIGHT (FVNM12A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Proclus; Is that another way of spelling Kabbalistic? In Jewish Mysticism, the tree of life is a symbol for Tiferet. bonnie (do I sound like I have been reading? Nah, I just have this book called _The Mystic Quest_...) PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/10/93 11:26 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: FVNM12A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/10/1993 Bonnie One more thing, the cabalistic tree motif is common in temple construction, not just in the new temples. In the Arizona temple, for example, (Melisse, are you tuned in?) the chandeliers in the great stairway are arranged in the pattern of the cabalistic tree. great cathedrals proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/10/93 11:33 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: WPWP12A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/10/1993 Mormonism has innumerable parallels with pagan religions. My favorite of late is the ritual circle. For those who have already heard this material, I have a little tidbit for you too! Nibley has observed that any inquiry into the subject of Mormon prayer circles juxtaposes us into a "strange space, a strange world - unlike ours - a world above that opens before us when we enter into the round dance of the disciples, led by Jesus." Surely, this must be one of the most insightful statements ever made about the ritual. Actually, there just aren't too many statements to be found about prayer circles. Now, that our brethren of the crazy right wing have re-discovered its magic, publishing on this important subject may become very difficult. Thank Goddess for publications like Sunstone! Now compare; "In Witchcraft, we define a new space and a new time whenever we cast a circle to begin a ritual. The circle exists on the boarders of ordinary space and time; it is "between the worlds" of the seen and the unseen, ... The restrictions and distinctions of our socially defined roles no longer apply; only the rule of nature holds sway, the rule of Isis who says "What I have made law can be dissolved by no man." Within the circle, the powers within us, the Goddess and the Old Gods are revealed." If you missed the intent of that last part, here's another clue; "And so, when every initiate is challenged at the gate to the circle, she speaks the only password: "Perfect loveWiccans2 ======== and perfect trust". (SPIRAL DANCE p54-58) Prayer circle groups are not what they used to be in the Church. They used to be working groups, like a witch covens. Joseph Smith had a name for these groups. He called them "anointed quorums" (STRANGERS IN PARADOX Chap. 16). He claimed these groups fully manifested of the spirit of Elijah. They were a new level of priesthood organization, a new center for spiritual power. Women were not excluded. It is hard to avoid hyperbole when describing the blessings that flowed from these groups. Given all of this, it is not surprising that some are attempting to revive the practice. Many, like the South Central Utah Study Groups are taking matters into their own hands. Personally, I will not pass judgment on these otherwise paranoid maniacs. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/10/93 11:33 PM Ha! proclus ps Cindy, the four quarters ARE evoked in the prayer circle. It is just done in a very suble way. Think about it! PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/12/93 6:19 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/11 10:25 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Proclus: I have to assume that the "us" who know nothing about her (Her) refers to the old men in suits in SL. (hopefully the descriptive reference won't arouse the rabid dogmatic ire here the way it did under other subject headings!) witchily, Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/12/93 6:23 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/12/1993 Cindy It could be that we was speaking of the Church as a whole, implying that we know nothing about the Goddess. If so this is just another example of Pres. Hinkley out on a limb! What do we REALLY know about God? proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/12/93 6:33 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/12/1993 Quinn gives the following as the reason for the decision to discontinue prayer circle activities. "As the number of stakes in the LDS Church reached nearly 1000, the Council of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve decided that it would be too difficult to comply with all the requests for new prayer circles." Now, it is difficult to believe that this responsibility could not have been delegated downward, like the sealing power was. There are numerous examples of this type of delegation in the Church. So, that justification doesn't wash, and we are left wondering what the real reason was for the elimination of this beautiful practice. Perhaps it was too paganistic, even for those paganistic Mormons! Quinn gives ample documentation for the spiritual manifestations that occured in connection with these "annointed quorums". The Toscanos concur and state that many Mormons look back to those days as a kind of spiritual renaissance and long for the restoration of the peculiar blessings that are the province of the annointed quorum. Thou art it proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/13/93 0:25 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/12 3:25 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: KIM BOWER (BRPG31B) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Mike: With most members being converts from 'orthodox Christianity', I am certian that prayer circles were too paganistic for their delicate sensitivities. They also might have turned off more than one potential convert. Can't have that can we? However, they sound like a beautiful custom to this convert. Keep posting! Kim \ nix 'orthodoxy' PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/13/93 0:25 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/12 6:28 PM TO: KIM BOWER (BRPG31B) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Kim -- that's the problem with most Church doctrines and policies today. Historians can see a definate change toward mainstream Protestant beliefs after the turn of the century, what I call "The Great Accommodations" where they got rid of a lot of stuff Joseph did in an attempt to be more acceptable to Victorian middle class American society and get Utah statehood. Same thing with women and priesthood-- the Church did not totally forbid all blessings given by women until the 1940s. Before that, sisters were considered to have many spiritual pngts which they were expected and/or encouraged to share in the Church. Now, the only pngt we can share with each other is the ability to speak "Relief Societese". J'ai eu mon voyage de ca! PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/13/93 0:30 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/12 8:06 PM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: KIM BOWER (BRPG31B) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy: Where do you think this accomadation will stop? When the Church is a full fledged member of the Protestant community? I am certainly not a fan of the idea of polygomy but I do have fondness for some of the other aspects JS restored to the Gospel. I think it is a real tragady that some of these things have been pushed in the closet. It seems womens only purpose in the Church is to bring 'special spirits into the world'. And I don't like this concept of being eternally pregnant in the afterlife:-) It's a shame that the Relief Society and the Priesthood was taken away from the women. And, that most women don't even know about this part of our history. I read official versions of Church history and it's like all of the women were invisiable. When I started reading Sunstone & Dialogue I was shocked to find that women held a very important and vital role in the Church at one time. Kim \ Preistess PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/13/93 0:32 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/13 12:21 AM TO: KIM BOWER (BRPG31B) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Kim -- Yes, I have been dealing with this whitewashed, faith-promoting history for a number of years. The remnants of our history get slimmer and slimmer all the time. I wish I had some answers, but I only have disallusionment and and discouragement. BTW, do you have copies of Margaret Toscano's papers--Missing Rib, et al.? I'd be glad to share if you don't. Cindy\the witch PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/16/93 10:22 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/13 11:59 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: KIM BOWER (BRPG31B) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Mike: Post away!! Kim \ who is not offended by endowment discussions PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/16/93 10:23 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/14 12:04 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS proclus --- YES!!!! YES!!!!! YES!!!! YES!!!! Cindy\who wants to know everything which is why she is a history major PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/16/93 10:23 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/14 12:23 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS re I know and think more than I am saying on this board: True. Guess I'm a little gun-shy on a public board. Who knows who is reading and I've been bitten before. Have I told you I am the principle (a president in a non-hierarchal group...) of our local Feminist Spiritualty Assn. We do seasonal ritual which makes me feel alive. My daughters love to participate. Somehow even the three-yr-old knows what is going on. Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/16/93 10:23 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/16 9:46 AM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy The youngsters often know it better than us. I took my boy on a father and son outing. He knew all about how the forest "is really" a Woman, how we are made out of stars, and how we are not going to hang out on a mud puddle like this planet much longer. surprised proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/17/93 10:17 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/17/1993 I have alot more Wiccan parallels to post. I just finished SPIRAL DANCE (last winter). Chapter 10, Initiation, was eye-opening. There is so much to post about this that I am going to do it a little at a time. Unfortunately, this will make the material a little less astounding. So, try to take it all together. Well now, solstice is upon us. The silvery star is burning wildly overhead. It is a time when Nature hides in crystals that shower upon our heads, Carmel's dew reified. Wiccan initiations are usually performed in "the naked body of truth", that is; nude. "We must strip ourselves of our defenses, pretensions, masks, roles, of our clothing and jewels, all that we assume and put on, in order to cross the threshold and enter the inner kingdom. The door opens only to the naked body of truth, bound by cords, our recognition of mortality... The cords of binding become the umbilical link to life. Death is subsumed into life, and we learn the Great Mystery." p161 This declaration of the reasons for nakedness in Wiccan ritual is not unlike Mormon explanations why street clothes aren't worn in the temple. We are leaving the world outside. Our worldly distinctions are left in the locker. In Mormonism, our nakedness is merely symbolised by the white garb, before the robes. Now, what can we learn from the Wiccan cords. In Mormonism, we are not bound by cords, but by sashes and ties. The bows and knots symbolise the seriousness of our obligations. The robes and all symbolise the gloriousness of the promise. I have some background for this. In some oriental weddings the couple holds hands and their wrists are tied with a cord. The parallel is clear. Another example comes from the D&C. I the Lord am bound when you do what I say, but when you do not what I say, you have no promise. I have commented before how this scripture represents the essence of the covenant motif. binding promise bound by contract, and so on PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/17/93 10:18 AM Finally, all of this makes me wonder. I have looked for a scholarly exposition on the importance of knot lore for transmitance of culture and ritual. I haven't found anything yet. Maybe it is because it is too obvious, too simple. Let me know if you have heard anything about knots and culture. boy scout coastie Mother wove the morning Alvin Maker proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/17/93 9:00 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/17 11:44 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS proclus re knots: Per Scott Card in Saintspeak (Mormon Dictionary) -- "Youth, the. Mormon teenagers, the hope of the future. To prepare them for the great responsibilities that lie ahead of them, the girls are trained to be competent wives and mothers and the boys are trained to play basketball and tie knots." on the lighter side, Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/17/93 9:01 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/17 11:56 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS On the other side: this is all connected to the three Fates, rulers of past, present & future in the Virgin, Mother & Crone; they are weavers of cords or ropes; hence fate is "bound to happen" or spells of fairy women are "binding" as are other types of vows. We "cut the cord" of newborn babies. Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/17/93 9:02 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/17 4:38 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: REBECCA BOSTICK (DSMG69A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS proclus, Actually, for wiccans its supposed to be a year and a day of study. Not being picky, just letting you know I'm still here.... And re: knots... it would seem to me that a knot is not an entirely natural form of binding. In wicca, its always "around and around, the circle be bound." Because a circle has no beginning and no end, as I'm sure you know. But a knot is a temporary unity. Check out the symbol for eternity- its a figure eight, two circles put together. Knots don't seem to have the permanence of a circular figure. In the handfasting rite (like marriage, but slightly different) a cord is wrapped around both partners wrists. but not tied. it is held in a symbolic circle. My only familiarity with knots is in a spell to harm a person- where nine knots are bound in a string, which is blessed and buried and burned... Also use three knots in a charm, to bind a blessing upon it. Still, I think knots aren't the universal symbol circles are...I'm on the verge of something here, d'you get my meaning? Knots are harsh, circles are beautiful. dancing widdershins... Rebecca PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/17/93 9:07 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/17 5:27 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS HEY, where was the little taste of the Wiccan endowment. Don't, oh please don't, tell me I missed it AGAIN!!!! AAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!! PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/17/93 9:20 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: KBHD86A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/17/1993 Hi Steph No, you didn't miss it. Set your calender back to read about ritual circles. As for the Wiccan Endowment, just stay tuned. whorling proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/17/93 9:26 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: KBHD86A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/17/1993 Now that you all have a little taste of the Wiccan endowment, we'll digress a moment and discuss some basic principles of ritual, in general, and the Wiccan endowment in particular. So much of the material published by the witches is about calendars and spells. This is what made it so difficult to make the comparison with Mormonism. We first began to suspect that there were mormonish practices within modern witchcraft when Robert Anton Wilson suggested that The Craft was really a form of freemasonry for women. Indeed, freemasons in Wilson's novels refer to "The Craft" instead of "the Lodge". Wilson is no mean authority on the subject since he is an initiate in many masonic and rosicrucian style lodges. He is also a white cord witch. It seems that Wilson, like many of us, is loathe to discuss the details of his initiatory experiences. He takes the oaths very seriously. He only drops hints and coded references here and there. This attitude is by no means universal. Israel Regardie published the rituals of the Golden Dawn. Starhawk published a wiccan initiation. Many Mormons have faced censure to unveil the temple rite. These publications received mixed reviews in these circles. In fact, the authors themselves express some reservations about it. But overall they see it as a superb networking ploy and a good way to spread thousands of copies of the ritual text around the world. In the event of some monumental disaster their ritual traditions will be preserved. All of these traditions share common ritual elements. "An initiation is a symbolic death and rebirth, a rite of passage that transforms each person who experiences it. In the Craft, it marks acceptance into a coven, and a deep, personal commitment to the Goddess. It is a pngt of power and love that coveners each give each other: the experience of those inner secrets that cannot be told because they go beyond words. For the individual, it becomes a change that causes revelation and understanding and sparks further growth." p160 These rituals always include a period of preparation and learning. For Mormons and witches this means a year of study, although this is not always followed strictly. Many esoteric societies have extensive periods of preparation that are nearly rituals unto themselves. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/17/93 9:26 PM Solomon's knot proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/18/93 0:25 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: DSMG69A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/18/1993 Rebecca Knots v. circles. That's a deep well. Can I put off that discussion for a few days (kinda getting ahead of me!)? As always, I am thankful for your contributions. My knowledge of Wicca is pretty sketchy in many respects. double widdershins... proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/18/93 0:33 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/18/1993 Cindy This kind of terminology is very pregnant. We cut the baby's cord, and then we tie it. My freind, Jeremy Ahouse, suggested that knots are so ubiquitous in human culture that any convergence with respect to knots and ritual can easily be explained as coincidence. This is a valid point, but how do you veiw coincidence? Why are knots so ubiquitous? Are they more important than the wheel? I find universal motifs like this most interesting. That so many of them are incorporated into Mormonism may provide intellectual proof of the Gospel to some. (Anybody is welcome to give me a lecture on faith!) I think they provide us with important information about the nature of this experience that has been engineered for us. Really, that is what intiation often seems to be about. What is the world supposed to be for the archtypal woman or man? spinning wheel proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/18/93 0:44 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/18/1993 The next parallel with Mormonism in this ritual motif is something which I have called the death trial, for want of a better word. Adam and Eve were told flatly that they would die if they took the fruit. This is true for the biblical account as well as every other version which I have read. In some of the less respectable masonic lodges the initiate is blindfolded and led through some dizzying circumbulations about the alter and then he is dumped in a well! Wiccan variations on this theme vary widely also. "The covener might be asked to find her way on an unknown path. She might have to find her way by scent and sound and finally let go of her fear and walk trustingly into the waves, where protective hands will pull her back." One initiate was told to sit and meditate quietly while a plaster mask was made of his face. p.162 The Mormon rite does not have some of the intensity of the other traditions in the realm of this initial shock and transition. (They make up for it elsewhere as we shall see!) This may be because of the high importance that is placed on getting the work done. Some practice the ritual to increase speed and get more ordinances done. Great importance is often placed on this. Futhermore, these are not merely ritual initiations. Mormons believe that they are doing the work for their ancestors. An endowed and sealed Mormon has linked himself with his grandfathers and added to the family of God. D&C132 hi grandpa! proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/18/93 7:14 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/18 11:59 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: J HEYDENRYCH (WWKF55B) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Proclus, I'd love to, except that I'm on the West Coast, and God put it too far away from the East Coast. You didn't TELL us anything about Earl and Matt. How is Matt feeling? Has he had his test yet? And what is Earl like? Is he the naughty old rascal I picture him to be, twinkling eyes and all? Do tell. J. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/18/93 7:17 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/18 11:25 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: MATTHEW BEGIN (PMHR30A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS So this is you main hang out these days..... BTW: Just found a place which sells temporary tattoos..... they'd go nice with the earing look. Matt ..... dumb about Wiccans PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/18/93 7:20 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/18 5:30 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: REBECCA BOSTICK (DSMG69A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS proclus, Initiation themes are fairly universal, I would think. The old 'separation, transition, reintroduction' theme as seen in many cultures (specially those old pagan ones!). In Wicca, it isn't so much about finding a higher spirit to guide you (like the Shamans, for instance) but in finding the strength within yourself to guide you through. After all "if that which ye seek, ye find not within yourself, you will never find without." Have you read The Witches Charge? Also- have you heard of Joseph Campbell's, "The Power of Myth" series??? Curious about these mormon parallels, keep em coming. great minds think alike, Rebecca PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/18/93 7:27 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/18/1993 The next step in the Mormon/Wiccan ritual cycle is the ritual washing. For Wiccans, this takes place in traditional Mormon fashion, that is, in a bathtub. The Mormon ritual has become more austere over the years in this area, (a tub is no longer used) but all the essentials are still there (we hope!). It is interesting that the Wiccans have chosen to elaborate the tub and the water. The tub is charged with salt. Oil and herbs are added. On the side are incense and candles. A new name is then chosen. This is the name by which the covener will be known within the working group. In Mormonism, the name is assigned and kept virtually secret. All of this is completely isomorphous with ancient coronation rites. It is said that King David was anointed in a similar fashion. The gnostics also had a similar practice. They called it unction and equated it with redemption. It gets kind of confusing at this point though because there are actual TWO separate anointings in this ritual cycle... more later proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/19/93 9:55 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: DSMG69A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/19/1993 Rebecca "finding the strength within yourself to guide you through" Yes, a major theme of this kind of ritual is empowerment. Here is a quote from one of the early leaders of the Church; "Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels and gods who stand as sentinals, being enabled to give them the key signs, words, and tokens, pertaining to the holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell." Obviously this is a little different from finding the power within, but this passage does describe a kind of personal power. I have had enough experience with Wicca to know the difference, but I think that their is an underlying similarity here. No Xtian religion would think of conferring this kind thing on the sheep of Jesus. Mormons beleive they are "gods in embryo". I have read The Witch's charge, but it was a while ago. Please feel free to refresh our memory. I think it is very relevant. Of course, Campbell had a very good handle on all of this.>> Last summer I watched every video in the Power of Myth series. We rented them from the library. It was great. Campbell is another one who seems to have initiated knowledge that he will only speak of in oblique ways. Heroes and Heroines proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/19/93 10:22 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: PNVF35A SUBJECT: MOTHER IN HEAVEN DATE: 05/19/1993 Julie Cindy is full of suggestions in this regard that I heartily recommend. I study the Goddess traditions. It is very likely that ancient dispensations had more revelations on this subject than we do. Female icons can tell us what the Goddess is, and what she is not.>>>>>> We have been discussing other methods at length up in the Mormo{Subjects. Try setting your clock back. We have been teaching people how to recognize the feminine aspect of Mormon ritual, a reflection of the divine Consort. Also, this is a church of personal revelation. Just because the Brethren aren't talking about something does not mean that no one knows anything about it. It does not mean that God doesn't want us to know anything about it. Why are we waiting for the Brethren to ask. We can ask for ourselves. We don't need any permission. >>>>>> Finally, we can try to live our lives as an image of the Goddess. As we nurture Her children and yearn to Her, Her light will shine through us and others will learn the ways of the Goddess through the example of our lives. She loves us and wants us to return to Her. Love Her back proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/19/93 10:47 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: WWKF55B SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/19/1993 0acqueline Sorry, I'm swamped, AND I am trying to follow WILD PALMS. We only had a two hour visit at Matt's. His house reminds me of St. Andrew's. The CDs, the computer. He is as nice a person as you think he is, maybe more. He's tall and thin. He felt pretty good the day we visited. We only talked about the demise of *P*, problems for free spirits in the Church, some local gossip, and YOU! (It was all very pleasant, beleive me) Earl is a fifty something retired school teacher. Yes, he and I both often wear an ear ring. I found him to be very personable. We talked about geneology, history, Sunstone, and meeting Matt. Palmyra 93 proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/19/93 10:12 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/19 6:00 PM TO: J HEYDENRYCH (WWKF55B) FROM: MATTHEW BEGIN (PMHR30A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS J .... Not to worry, the words were all quite kind. I believe we were talking about how nice it is for some of us to have this forum to discuss issues we have with the church. I called it a "safety net" for some people who are uncomfortable with church. It was nice to have the chance to meet with Mike and Earl. Mike is a very bright and friendly guy who seems to always have a smile on his face.> Earl reminds me of a few school teachers I had back in high school, not hard to picture him in front of a class. I think you'd enjoy the chance to meet him if your paths ever cross, he's very easy to talk to. Matt in Mass PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/20/93 0:43 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: all SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/20/1993 Just as I was about to put everything into writing concerning the second anointing, WOMEN AND AUTHORITY was released and Dan gave us all an excellent synopsis of the relevant material. I continue with his posts. As newly sustained president of the Anointed Quorum, Joseph administered the initiatory ordinances and priesthood endowment to his wife in an upper room of the Nauvoo Mansion The record of minutes shows that at this same meeting, Joseph and Emma also became the first couple to receive the 'second anointing' or 'fullness of the priesthood.' By this ceremony they were each 'annointed & ordained to the highest & holiest order of the priesthood.' Later church historians in Utah deleted Emma's name from the 1843 description of the prophet's 'second Anointing of the Highest & Holiest order.' However, church historians were more direct about the second anointing for Hyrum and Mary Fielding Smith. Apostle and Church Historian Wilford Woodruff specifically called the ordinance a 'second anointing,' and the History of the Church describes the ordinace as: 'My brother Hyrum and his wife were blessed ordained and anointed.' Even in the 19th century church publications usually called the second anointing by such euphemisms as 'fullness of the priesthood,' 'higher ordinances,' 'higher blessings,' or 'second blessings.' However, LDS publications in both the 19th and 20th centuries sometimes identified the ordinances by its actual name: second anointing. Of the relationship between the endowment's initiatory anointing and the second anointing, Heber Kimball explained: 'You have been anointed to be kings and priests [or queens and priesWiccans3 ======== tesses], but you have not been ordained to it yet, and you have got to get it by being faithful.' In the second anointing, the husband and wife are ordained 'King and Queen, Priest and Priestess to the Most high God for Time and through out all Eternity.' Thus Emma began the fulfillment of the prophet's promise to make the Relief Society 'a kingdom of priests.' She was anointed to become a 'queen and priestess' in the initiatory ordinance of the endowment and was ordained to the fulness of those offices by the second anointing. First counselor Sidney Rigdon later (1868) commented on this event: 'Emma was the one to whom the female priesthood was first given.' A common misunderstanding claims that women receive PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/20/93 0:43 AM priesthood only through temple marriage or through the second anointing - both of which a husband and wife must receive together. However, such was not the view expressed by many of the Anointed Quorum's original members, who learned about the endowment directly from Joseph Smith. Brigham Young's 1843 diary associated the endowment of women with receiving priesthood. On Oct. 29, 1843, he noted that Thirza Cahoon, Lois Cutler, and Phebe Woodworth were 'taken into the order of the priesthood.' That was the day day those three women individually received their endowments. They did not join with their husbands to receive the second anointing until Nov. 12 & 15 respectively When his own wife received the endowment on Nov. 1, 1843, Brigham wrote: 'Mary Young admitted in to the highest orderer [order of] Preasthood [sic].' She did not receive the second anointing with Brigham until three weeks later. ---tomorrow I'll post the Wiccan parallels sleepy proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/20/93 9:33 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: DDSJ06A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/20/1993 Earl I am not surprised that anyone should "get lost" in this subject. We've been building here for several weeks. The concepts are pretty interdependent. Also, many Mormons realize that their religion has parallels with ancient religions. The idea that there might also be unexpected parallels with other modern religions may be new to them. The basis for the contentions we are making in this subject is the Nauvoo Prayer Circle. Even this is a new topic for most Mormons. I would like to correct this ignorance of these important events. I am at your disposal if there is anyone with questions that is getting lost. playing catch up proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/20/93 10:07 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/20 12:28 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: EARL CRANDALL (DDSJ06A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS MIKE: I tried to read through most of this subject, but "got lost". Maybe it's beyond me -- things like that have certainly happened before and will surely happen again. I think that all religions have had a heavy dependence on astronomy//astrology since the beginning of time, and will right through "'till the end of time". However, I have found that modern fundamentalist groups seem NOT to have much to do with anything which has a "taste" of astrology or of any facet of the surreal. Speaking of surreal -- did you hang in with "Wild Palms"? I didn't watch any of it, but some friends told me they thought it was one of the worst shows they ever "started" -- they lasted 1 1/2 nights. A nice line from one of EHL's poems ... "From the lute of Israfel" PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/21/93 8:35 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/20 12:03 PM TO: MATTHEW BEGIN (PMHR30A) FROM: J HEYDENRYCH (WWKF55B) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Matt, Hi! How are you feeling this week? Any results yet? I'm so glad you were able to have some comic relief with Mike and Earl. I'd like to be able to meet some of these strange folks myself... Jacqueline PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/21/93 8:37 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/20 1:45 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: S RITCH (NNGP39C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Proclus, being a recent new "lurker" on the LDS board from the Wicca board, I have found your discussions on this subject very facinating! As a person who, at one time, looked into the Morman faith, I find these corralations between Mormanism and Wicca interesting - I hadn't thought of these comparisions before. There are 2 things that I would like to inject though: 1) a Wiccan initiate is not always naked (we call it sky-clad), it is usually up to the initiate themself and/or the traditions of the coven that they are joining. I myself, when the time comes would find being naked infront of others besides my husband a bit disconcerting. My husband and I practice our faith as solitaries, but do occationally join others during holiday celebrations. I do believe that when we decide to be "initiated" we will probably do it ourselves, as my husband and I believe that we are dedicating our lives to the Goddess and the God (as you do to God) and not specifically to other Wiccans. This may disturb other Wiccans, who believe that only a HighPrietess can do it, but I find that the beauty of Wicca is that you can do your own thing and still be accepted by your peers. 2) Also, please let it be known that not all initiations have these strange goings on - plaster masks (that's a new one on me), blindfoldings with aimless wonderings, etc. When it comes time for our initiation (as I believe we may be doing it this fall), we will be writing our own ceremony to fit our beliefs and that it will be a very meaningful and tender ritual. Lastly, it is such a refreshing change to be able to see two different religions being able to discuss things with such rationale. All of those HELL and DAMNATION notes that we get over on the Wicca board can NEVER bring people to better understanding of each other's beliefs. Thank you for the breath of fresh air and I will continue to "lurk" (read) around your notes. If you have any questions about Wicca that need answering, please do not hesitate to come on over and type away with your questions. And don't forget to let us know that you've come over from the LDS board. It's nice to know that someone else out there can love us for what and who we are. Light and Love. *S* PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/21/93 8:38 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/20 3:32 PM TO: S RITCH (NNGP39C) FROM: REBECCA BOSTICK (DSMG69A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS S- Hello and welcome from a fellow pagan. I'm over here keeping watch over the mormon/pagan parallels myself. Nice to see another kindred spirit. Stick around awhile- tis a fascinating subject. Rebecca PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/21/93 8:38 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/20 8:57 PM TO: S RITCH (NNGP39C) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS S & Rebecca: I think the thing I like the most about wicca is that one is able to do what feels intuitively "right". I seem to pull on stuff that is either genetic or from past lives (now don't all the Mormons have a fit here!). Am I right? Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/21/93 8:39 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/20 11:42 PM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: REBECCA BOSTICK (DSMG69A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy, I believe the stuff from past lives lingers around in the subconscious. The soul's instincts never truly change in each life, they evolve and develop, but they remain the basic same. If you're in tune enough with yourself, you can pick up from these experiences, as you've spoken of doing. I don't know that this is a pagan principle, we just seem to accept it easily in Wicca. Wicca = 'wise one', its all about knowing thyself (and, might I add, finding divinity within thyself!) :} -Rebecca PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/21/93 8:40 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/21 1:00 AM TO: REBECCA BOSTICK (DSMG69A) FROM: BONNIE WRIGHT (FVNM12A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Rebecca; One thing that I am good at is being introspective. I love to listen to the sound of silence. At times, I will get a deja vu type of feeling. I first noticed this from childhood. So I decided to remind myself that I felt this way, so when I felt it the next time I would remember that I have had this before. It is sort of a "at one with" type of feeling. bonnie PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/21/93 8:41 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/20 1:58 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: S RITCH (NNGP39C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Proclus - you may find it interesting that many Wiccans actually have up to (and possibly) more than 2 two names. 1) they're legal name that they were given when they were born. 2) a public name that many use on things like BB's like this. 3) an initiation name that they take when they are intiated and is only used within the coven. 4) a name that they choose that will only be used between them and the Goddess and the God. Keep up the good work. I am finding this all very interesting and also along the correct lines. {VBG} :) *S* PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/21/93 8:41 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/20 11:49 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: BONNIE WRIGHT (FVNM12A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Proclus; Actually you have been at it a couple of months. bonnie PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/21/93 8:41 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/21 8:10 AM TO: BONNIE WRIGHT (FVNM12A) FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS time flys proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/21/93 8:43 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/20 5:49 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: BRANDON HOPKINS (WTST41C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS I find all this especially interesting considering I was raised in the Mormon church but am now Wiccan :) -The Student PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/21/93 8:45 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/20 9:03 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS A lot of this women and priesthood and second anointing stuff was part of Margaret Toscano's two landmark papers "The Missing Rib: Forgotten Queens and Priestesses in the Establishment of Zion" and "Missing Rib Revisited." Would you mind if I started posting some of her stuff next week? Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/21/93 8:45 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/21 3:43 AM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: JULIE COOK (PNVF35A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy, Please post some of her stuff. And I remember reading a while back about someone's paper... was it Lavina's? I thought I copied the post, but can't find it now. Could you tell me where I can get it? Thanks, Julie PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/22/93 7:30 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/21 9:25 AM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: S RITCH (NNGP39C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy - Yes, I can agree with you "going with your intuition" in what you can do. I do find though that living by the Rede - "And harm none, do what ye will" - can definitely help you in those decisions. I'm not one to try to tempt the Karmic "2x4" and get any backlash from something that I have done against someone else. I still stick to the doing only good and then receiving things back three times as good. Hey, just call me the Good Witch of the East............ *S* PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/22/93 7:41 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: NNGP39C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/22/1993 *S* I adopted the Rede in 1984. I found it ably replaced any of the complex moral codes that I had tried up to then. For me it took the form of the law of Thelema; "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Love is the Law, love under Law." That was the year I first heard of Wicca too. I can't say that I had any real understanding of Wicca until I read SPIRAL DANCE last summer though. What a revelation! This is to show you my ignorance. I seem to be a life long, 4th generation Mormon. I have only recently discovered witchcraft. That's one of the reasons I am happy to have you and Rebecca around here. Mormo{Wiccan proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/22/93 8:10 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/22/1993 On Feb. 3, 1844, William Clayton's diary noted that he 'was permitted to the ordinance of washing and anointing, and was received into the Quorum of Priesthood.' On that same occasion Jane Bicknell Young was also endowed and received 'into the Quorum of the Priesthood.' The prophet's secretary later noted: 'All the first quorum with one or two exceptions were present both male and female.' Joseph Smith's uncle John Smith subsequently pronounced a patriarchal blessin on Maria Turnbow which specified that it was through the endowment ceremony that a woman receives the priesthood: 'Thou shalt have an Endowment in the Lord's house [and] be clothed with the Power of the Holy Priesthood [to] be able to redeem thy fathers house.' Bathsheba W. Bibler Smith shared this view. She entered Joseph's Anointed Quorum in Dec. 1843. "I have always been pleased that I had my endowments when the Prophet lived. He taught us the true order of prayer. I never like to hear a sermon without hearing sonething of the Prophet, for he gave us everything, every order of the priesthood. He said he had given the sisters instructions that they could administer to the sick and he wanted to make us, as the women were in Paul's day, 'A kingdom of priestesses.'" In Feb. 1844 stake patriarch John Smith told an LDS woman named Louisa Jackson that she had a right to priesthood from her birth. "Thou art of the blood of Abraham thru the Loins of Manasseh & lawful heir to the Priesthood. Jackson was not among the elite Mormon women who received the endowment before the opening of the Nauvoo Temple in Dec. 1845. Referring to her eventual sealing and second anointing, the patriarch added that Jackson 'shall possess it [priesthood] in common with thy companion.' Jackson's blessing showed that any Mormon woman had a birthright to priesthood which depended on no man. John Smith's blessings to Maria Turnbow and Louisa Jackson clearly show that a Mormon woman receives the priesthood for herself through the endowment. A Mormon woman and a Mormon man recieve the higher priesthood blessings only as a couple through the sealing of marriage and through the second anointing (or 'fullness). As Apostle Talmage wrote: 'True, ther are certain of the higher ordinances to which an unmarried woman cannot be admitted, but the rule is equally in force as to a bachelor.' (House of the Lord, p.94). Uncle John Smith's church standing and experience make it difficult to regard him as misinformed when he affirmed that there is a female birthright to priesthood. A special PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/22/93 8:10 AM counselor in the First Presidency since 1837, John Smith became a member of the Anointed Quorum on Spt 28, 1843, the same day his nephew Joseph received the second annointing. From then until he blessed Louisa Jackson, John Smith received four months of private instructions from the prophet about the Holy Order of the Priesthood during the frequent meetings of the Anointed Quorum. Isn't Dan great! proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/22/93 9:02 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/22/1993 For those who are coming into this discussion a little late, here is some terminology and stuff. The Mormon ritual circle is known and the true order of prayer, or simply the prayer circle. In the circle, what western esoteric lodges would call "the signs of the grades" are made. The group is then led in an antiphonal prayer. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Joseph organized the city of Nauvoo into prayer circle groups. They were cooperatives consisting of five or six families. They shared grain, well water, a common area, and the intense spiritual and personal intimacy that can only come from group work. There are, of course, analogous practices within witchcraft and we have already discussed them at length. Many of us long for the closeness that is to be had within a working group like a ritual circle, or a coven. Wiccan initiation also has much to teach us in this regard.> After the "death test", the initiate is washed. In this ritual complex, the initiate is clothed in the ritual garb. for Mormons this means white cotton robes that are tied at the side with cords and a sash. For Wiccans the garb is a little more austere, consisting of cords only. The apprentice then gives his ritual name. There is a challenge, and a password is given. In witchcraft, the initiate is brought back to the altar, and the "fivefold kiss" is administered. The apprentice is kissed five times corresponding to the following formula which is recited by the High Priestess; Blessed are your feet, which have brought you in these ways. Blessed are your knees, that kneel at the sacred alter. Blessed is your sex, without which we could not be. Blessed are your breasts, formed in strength and beauty. Blessed are your lips, which shall speak the sacred names. I stand aghast at the many parallels that this beautiful formula has with the Mormon rite. Unfortunately, I am not at liberty to discuss any of them. The initiate is then administered the coven oath, followed by what Mormonism would call "the second anointing". >>>>>>>>>>> Kerry and I have recently been surveying the BOOK OF ABRAHAM and THE MESSAGE OF THE JOSEPH SMITH PAPYRI. It seems that the Egyptian intitiation included practices that are virtually identical to these rites in many respects. As one studies these these cycles, one is impressed that not only PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/22/93 9:03 AM the content of the ritual elements are preserved in these traditions, but also the order of the elements is maintained; death trial, washing, naming, clothing, administration, second anointing in that order. Obviously, Mormons can learn much from the study of the initiatory rites of other groups and other times. pillars proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/22/93 9:21 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/22 12:52 AM TO: ALL FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: WOMEN/BLESSING CIRCL Just thought I'd add some historical perspective to this wonderful topic: Joseph Smith's views on women giving blessings: "there could be no evil in it, if God gave his sanction by healing. There could be no more sin in any female laying hands on the sick than in wetting the face with water. There were sisters who were ordained to heal the sick and it was their privilege to do so. If the sisters should have faith to heal, let all hold their tongues." Eliza R. Snow, plural wife of Joseph and Brigham, sister of Lorenzo Snow: "All sisters who honor their holy endowments, not only have the right, but should feel it a duty whenever called upon to administer to our sisters in these ordinances, which God had graciously committed to His daughters as well as to His sons; and we testify that when administered and received in faith and humility they are accompanied with all mighty power. Inasmuch as God our Father has revealed these sacred ordinances and committed them to His Saints, it is not only our privilege but our imperative duty to apply them for the relief of human suffering." Zina D. H. Young, wife of Brigham, General Relief Society President: "It is the privilege of the sisters, who are faithful in the discharge of their duties, and have received their endowments and blessings in the house of the Lord, to administer to their sisters, and to the little ones, in time of sickness, in meekness and humility, every being careful to ask in the name of Jesus, and to give God the glory." (more following later) PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/22/93 9:22 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/22 2:03 AM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: WOMEN/BLESSING CIRCL John Taylor in a letter to all authorities of the Priesthood: "It is the privilege of all faithful women and lay members of the Church, who believe in Christ, to administer to all the sick or afflicted in their respective families, either by the laying on of hands, or by the anointing with oil in the name of the Lord: but they should administer in these sacred ordinances, not by virtue and authority of the priesthood, but by virtue of their faith in Christ, and the promises made to believers; and thus they should do in all their ministrations." President Joseph F. Smith clarified the distinction between the washing and anointing done in the temple by sisters for sisters as an ordinance, and the blessings outside the temple. He then said about the blessings by sisters: "there is no impropriety whatever in their doing so, inasmuch as they do it in a proper way, that is, in the spirit of faith and prayer, and without assumption of special authority, no more in fact than members of the church generally need to be barred from receiving a blessing at the hands of faithful women. As to the particular form of words to be used, there is none, not any more than there is for an elder to use in administering to the sick." Two years later, he again stated: "...namely in the clause pertaining to women administering to children, those sisters need not necessarily be only those who had received their endowments, for it was not always possible for women to have that privilege and women of faith might do so (give blessings)." Cindy\proud to be their daughter PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/22/93 9:24 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: WOMEN/BLESSING CIRCL DATE: 05/22/1993 Cindy at last! proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/24/93 10:55 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/24/1993 Cindy Have you had any notes pulled lately? It is really quite unusual for me. Last saturday morning the board managers returned all of my current Mormo{Wiccan posts and asked me to repost in the "RELIGIOUS ISSUES" area. the persecuted become the persecutors proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/24/93 10:56 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/22 9:36 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS proclus Check out my note on WomBlesCir subject. I just posted a great deal of similar material. Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/24/93 10:59 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: NFGW55A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/24/1993 Edward What is an swf? Wiccans don't need missionaries since the Mormons ones are doing it just fine! unexpected proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/24/93 11:00 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/22 9:49 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS proclus It is amazing to me how much of this stuff is archetypal. It touches me to the very core. Patriarchy has almost succeeded in completely stripping it away--I know women who have to keep telling themselves "they don't burn witches any more." And here we have this wonderful doctrine which is the only Christian church as far as I know that acknowledges the existence of the Goddess (except of course for Mary), yet they forbid gender-inclusive prayer and worship, and keep the majority of the members ignorant of the symbology in our sacred rituals. And I keep having people question my membership and insist that I don't belong in the Church if I want this. It's so disheartening. It's all here in the Church. So close and yet so far away. Cindy\tired today PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/24/93 11:05 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/23 7:32 PM TO: ALL FROM: DEBRA LIENING (WSPK04A) SUBJECT: MOTHER IN HEAVEN There is a vision in my soul, As clear as spirit sight can be, Of women, who beyond the veil Stand tall in regal majesty! Who living in another time Were true and proved their valiancy. They tasted bitter, dark despair But rose with hope's bright jubilee. Subject to fear and evil's power, Found safety in faith's certainty. Came forth from trial's white-hot flames Burned clean of all impurity. Each wears a crown upon her brow Of peace and smooth serenity. Her eyes are filled with piercing light That radiate love's energy; And features fine and clean and strong Are tempered with tranquility. And so, they, clear and shining stand - As prisms of integrity; With shoulders square and heads held high By inner chords of harmony. They reign as queens and priestesses In realms of light, eternally! Your daughters here are reaching up In pleading, list'ning, yearning prayer For patience, purity and love - For self and all within their care. Each life, a proving ground, designed To strengthen them as they prepare. For each must reach beyond herself For mighty faith and pow'r to bear The test a loving Father gives; The scorching trials He must not spare To burn away the mortal dross 'Til only good is shining there. And in rare, precious moments here, Sometimes when we are unaware, You step across the veil and stand Beside us; radiating fair PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/24/93 11:05 AM And warm, the messages of love Our Father sent you here to share. Oh, may we know your quiet strength, Your queenly grace and wisdom rare! The qualities you garnered here And brought to sweet fruition there. The harvest grand of Womanhood And all to which we now are heir! "Vision" by Annette O. Longhurst - my former VT I'm grateful that such "reaching across" has enriched my life - and that learning about my ancestresses (goddesses-to -be) has helped (tho not completely) fulfill my need for a feminine role model. Debra in MI PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/24/93 11:06 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: WSPK04A SUBJECT: MOTHER IN HEAVEN DATE: 05/24/1993 Debra What a precious poem! still glowing proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/28/93 11:12 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/26 1:04 PM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: C STEINFUHRER (WPKJ41A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy, Iam LDS, and I see this bringing in the "wiccan" practices the same as with the Catholic church, who to make the romans accept the church, allowed the roman's pagan practices to be melded into the worship service and beliefs. This is one item that contributed to the apostacy. Second, as I see it, we men hold only an interim priesthood here on earth; but if we are sealed to our spouse in the temple, and are true to the end, we will meet our spouses past the veil,and there she will COMPLETE our priesthood, as she is the only one in God's kingdom who can do this. Then I believe she will hold the priesthood TOGETHER with her husband. I believe this is the reason she is not ordained to the priesthood while on earth. Here she is the husband's councillor, and we men would do well to listen.The masculinity of the man is to be tempered by the femininity of the woman. Together they accomplish the Lord's purpose. I might be an old fool, but it took me a long time to understand my own rolein reference to my wife's. Charles PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/28/93 11:13 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/27 1:59 AM TO: ALL FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Charles (no replies on old note): I am confused about your point in this subject, and I'm not sure what you think I believe or advocate. The wiccan aspect or correlaries are interesting investigations, and Wiccans4 ======== I do believe that almost all traditions worldwide, ancient and new, have SOME truths contained therein. If Joseph's restoration included some of those truths from other traditions, that would only make sense. In the meantime, you kind of got sidetracked on women and the priesthood?? Was this in response to my post on priesthood/motherhood rhetoric under another subject? I am not sure what your point is here. If you'd care to clarify, I'll be glad to respond. Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/28/93 11:13 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/27 1:59 AM TO: ALL FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Charles (no replies on old note): I am confused about your point in this subject, and I'm not sure what you think I believe or advocate. The wiccan aspect or correlaries are interesting investigations, and I do believe that almost all traditions worldwide, ancient and new, have SOME truths contained therein. If Joseph's restoration included some of those truths from other traditions, that would only make sense. In the meantime, you kind of got sidetracked on women and the priesthood?? Was this in response to my post on priesthood/motherhood rhetoric under another subject? I am not sure what your point is here. If you'd care to clarify, I'll be glad to respond. Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/28/93 11:40 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: MOTHER IN HEAVEN DATE: 05/28/1993 Cindy I refuse to believe that anyone can keep me from the Goddess. This is, as you pointed out, the church of revelation. That includes personal revelation (Before I am attacked, I do mean PERSONAL, ie not for the whole Church). Furthermore, we have our reasoning powers. We also have a a whole human history of Goddess traditions which can teach us about Her. We don't have to wait for someone in authority to tell us about Her. Now, the Brethren have given us some very particular limitations on what we should do in church. For example, we have been asked not to pray to Her. There is no reason why these specific limitations should stop a creative person from getting general access to the Mother. why wait? proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/29/93 0:14 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/29/1993 I ordered MORMONISM, MAGIC, AND MASONRY. This unfortunate necessity resulted from the fact that MORMONISM AND THE MAGICAL WORLDVIEW is now VERY difficult to obtain. Too bad. If there is any good info in M3 (doubtful) I will certainly pass it on to you all. They also sent me issue 75 of "Messenger". On page 17 I found the following pertinant information. "Walter Martin stated; 'Herein is our postition pertaining to some of the views advanced in the booklet <"Temple of Doom">... we agree... that there are similarities and parallels among Mormonism and forms of modern Witchcraft and Satanism. However, ... what similarities there are stem NOT from Mormonism borrowing directly from Witchcraft and Satanism, but the commonality that all three have being heavily influenced by Free Masonry.'" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems that Martin disagreed with the following statement from "Temple of Doom"; "Ample evidence exists to prove that Joseph Smith stole the temple endowment from Masonry or witchcraft." For the record, I also think it is ridiculous to conclude, based on the evidence that we have so far discussed, that Joseph borrowed any material from witchcraft. However, Martin's explanation is not wholy satisfying either. For example, it does not explain the ritual elements that are shared with Wicca, but NOT with Masonry. These would include any of the washing rituals. Thus, the similarities cannot be wholy explained by the common root of Freemasonry. The more I think about it, the more I agree with Cindy. We are dealing with ritual ARCHETYPES. The similarities could be explained by an observation that the archetypes are merely part of what it means to be human. Charismatic Joseph must certainly have had at least a gut understanding of this. As the scholars are now informing us, his religion is full of archetypes. charism proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/29/93 1:34 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: BRPG31B SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/29/1993 Kim My dictionary defines archetype as an original pattern or prototype. Adam can be viewed as the archetype of humanity since he is known as the first man. His adventure illuminates each of our paths. The same can be said for Eve. Archetypes can come in many shapes and sizes. There is the dying hero and the triumphant hero. There is the green woodland spirit with pointy ears. Think of Mr. Spock, Robin Hood, and Peter Pan. Goddess archetypes are many and varied. Grave's THE WHITE GODDESS catalogs many goddess archetypes. There is the dark murderous Goddess like Kali, and there is the shining Goddess who promises immortality like the bubble witch of Oz. There is the Great Mother like the Virgin Mary. Jung suggested that these archetypes are part of the "collective unconscious". They speak to the most basic human needs and resonate with something deep within us. They are shared by all of us. It has been suggested that some forms of scientific or consciousness research, ritual initiation, or magickal operations can evoke archetypal experiences. These archetypes may even have that "peculiar quality of external reality and alien intelligence". In other words, they can appear as projected in three dimensions. They can also be surreptitiously experienced, like when you got really engrossed in that epic fantasy novel a few years ago, or the first time you saw BEAUTY AND THE BEAST or THE LITTLE MERMAID. The clever religious innovator will make use of these archetypes in his formulations and ritual designs. veritable image proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/29/93 1:34 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/29 1:46 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: KIM BOWER (BRPG31B) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Mike: At the risk of appearing ignorant, I was wandering if you could explain what an archetype is exactly. Thanks, Kim \ who has seen the term many times PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/29/93 1:41 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: DDSJ06A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/29/1993 Hi Earl Yes, I managed to watch the whole of WILD PALMS. I got it on tape. The critics aren't happy, but I am. The problem is that it is a post modern drama about some possible implications of virtual reality. An analogous thing happened with the DUNE movie. Time has shown us what an enduring film it really is. In PALMS, the characters don't relate to each other in classical ways, but rather in derridean ways. Unfortunately, this kind of thing goes right over the heads of people who haven't been exposed to it before. The only reason I got it is that I recorded it. When each segment was over, I reviewed the scenes that were giving me trouble. I really liked it very much. ghost without a name proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/29/93 1:47 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: WPKJ41A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/29/1993 C As far as I know, no one is "trying to bring in Wiccan practices". These practices are already extant in the gospel. We are merely discussing the fact that these practices already exist in Mormonism. This is not a recent development. These practices have been in place since Nauvoo. In fact, there is some evidence that the Church is retreating from some of these practices. They cannot give up them completely though, because, to do so would mean giving up virtually the entire body of Mormon ritual. As this is not likely, we are "stuck" with Wiccan practices in our religion. I have given a possible explanation for why these parallels exist based on collective unconsciousness. Historical explanations may be forth coming, however, historical analysis of esoteric traditions is difficult to say the least. Freemasonry would have to play a role in any such explanation. Do you really want to talk about this, or would you rather sit in your comfort zone? proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/29/93 1:49 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: FVNM12A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/29/1993 Bonnie Good Question! This is something that I wondered about until a few years ago. "If anyone missed it, Bonnie asked, "Why do we have to be sealed in this time and place with our physical form? Since we are passing through, what is the significance of this place?" Classical Mormon doctrine does not have answers to this question. We are told that we are here to gain experience. It is useful to view the Mormon God as a classical magickian or physicist. This place is like any other place in that we need to learn to comprehend it and avail ourselves of the power and principles that are unique to this sphere. This is what the Mormon God did, and this seems like intelligent course for us to take. This place is presumably peculiar in it's physicality, and in that it is the province of death. We may not get another chance to get the experiences that are only available to us here. fly a kite proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/31/93 5:43 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/31/1993 Cindy Thanx for the clarification. You're right of course. I think "surrepticiously" was the wrong word. What I meant was that literature and drama can evoke an epic experience within us. This is more than an image. It's more like a virtual adventure. story behind the story proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/31/93 5:44 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/31 5:00 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Proclus re archetypes: Just one minor correction: The disney movies/stories are not archetypes in and of themselves, but disney uses archetypal IMAGES in the animation. Actually, I am quite literally writing a book on the subject and presenting part of it at the NWSA national conference in Wash D.C. in two weeks. Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/31/93 5:44 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/30 2:32 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: REBECCA BOSTICK (DSMG69A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS proclus, Good answer, good answer! -Rebecca the pagan PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/31/93 5:49 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/29 3:59 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: ALAN BEGHTEL (WPWP12A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS please keep talking/posting! PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/31/93 5:50 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/31 5:00 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS proclus: Have you read of any Katherin Kurtz's "Deryni" stuff? This is a lady who has done her homework. I think she has hit the nail on the head a number of times with regards to ancient ritual, wicca, healing, catholicism and Mormon rituals. What do you think? Margaret Toscano has written on this subject, and I will be posting some of her stuff on "Beyond the Veil" this week. Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/31/93 7:06 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/31 6:54 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: HEATHER HANSEN (KDWR95A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Where is your evidence that Joseph stole it from witchcraft, etc.? I'm appalled that you would even write this about our Church. We don't do anything like that. I'm disgusted that people would be low enough to say such mean things. Why don't you concentrate on your own religion rather than tear other people's down. Heather PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/31/93 7:17 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: KDWR95A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/31/1993 Heather I'm sorry that you misunderstood my post. Perhaps you should reread it. I did not say what you attribute to me, in fact, I said the exact opposite. I was merely quoting someone else. I then said that I thought it was ridiculous to conclude that Joseph borrowed ANYTHING from witchcraft.>> It is further ridiculous to conclude that I am trying to tear down Mormonism. I am a lifelong, third generation Mormon myself, and I plan to remain in the Church for the rest of my life. I even agree with you that the statements made by the authors I quoted were mean spirited. Because of their cruelty they are misinterpreting the facts. That's all, and you're right, it is appalling. Please go back and reread the post. I consider you my ally. most sincere post of my colorful tenure proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/31/93 7:30 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 05/31/1993 John Smith also described the ancient dimension of this female birthright to priesthood. In his blessing to Carolin Cottam in Mar. 1853, he referred to the 'Priesthood which Abraham sealed upon his daughters.' He also blessed Elizabeth Bean in May 1953: 'I seal upon you all the blessings of Abraham, Isacc, and Jaboc; and all the priesthood that was sealed upon the daughters of Joseph in the land of Egypt.' He made a similar statment in another female blessing in Nov. 1853. According to John Smith, a female priesthood contiued throughout the centuries until the sojourn of the 12 tribes in Egypt. According to 1st counselor Heber Kimball in 1857, Jewish women continued to have the priesthood in the early Christian era. 'Was every woman qualified to raise that child [Jesus]? No. You will find that Mary was of the Royal Priesthood, which is after the order of God. Like her ancestors, Mary of Nazareth alo held the 'Royal Priesthood' which is now called Melchizedek. On Dec. 7, 1845 Kimball had recorded the names of 23 men and 19 women who 'are members of the Holy Order of the Holy Presthood [sic] having Recieved [sic] it in the Life time of Joseph and Hirum, the Prophets.' Of these 19 women, 3 had not yet received the second anointing. In the temple a week later, Kimball's diary noted that Brigham Young 'appointed W.W. Phelps and P.P. Pratt to instruct the brethren and sisters more fully into the nature and importance of the blessings and powers of the Holy Priesthood which they had received.' Kimball's observations, according to Quinn, that women received the priesthood through the endowment are significant because he usually expressed misogynous views. (see On the Potter's Wheel, p. 174 & Heber C. Kimball Mormon Patriarch and Pioneer p. 234-36). Yet another member of Joseph Smith's Anointed Quorom, Joseph Young, also affirmed that LDS women received the Melchizedek priesthood when they were endowed and not through the sealing or second anointing with their husbands. Young in a blessing to Zina Young Card in 1878 said: 'These blessings are yours, the blessings and power according to the holy Melchizedek Priesthood you received in your Endowments, and you shall have them.' Young had been senior president of the First Council of Seventy since 1837 and an ordained patriarch since 1873. Zina was his niece and Brigham Young's daughter. In 1877, Edward Tullidge's 'Women of Mormondom' reflected the view expressed by general authorities for 35 years: 'The Mormon women, as well as men, PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 05/31/93 7:30 PM hold the priesthood.' Several other early LDS general authorities held similar views about women and priesthood. However, they were more tentative than Joseph and those who received the prophet's personal instruction about the endowment. However, Joseph Smith's 1842 promise, Hyrum Smith's patriarchal blessings in 1843, Brigham Young's 1843 diary, William Clayton's 1844-45 diary, Heber Kimball's 1845 diary, and patriarchal blessings by John Smith from 1844 on and by Joseph Young in 1878 all show that LDS women receive the priesthood through the endowment alone.... Love Dan proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 7:58 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/31 8:49 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: HEATHER HANSEN (KDWR95A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS I'm sorry. I misunderstood. Your friend, Heather PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 7:59 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/01 12:25 AM TO: HEATHER HANSEN (KDWR95A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Heather: No one is saying Joseph borrowed anything from witchcraft. Please backdate on your bb main menu and read what we have been discussing here. Basically, it is that ALL religious traditions have some elements of truth, and it would make sense if the Restoration of all things included those elements of truth from other traditions as well as from basic Protestant Christianity. Also, the definition of Wicca is a problem. Most people naturally assume that wicca is witchcraft of the type practiced by demonologists--that wicca is worship of the devil. WRONG. Wicca is the "old religion" of pre-Christian Europe and is worship of the Goddess and nature. It is "magic", but the same could be said of priesthood blessings that heal and other pngts of the spirit. NO ONE here is advocating worship of Satan, believe me!!! We are simply discussing the common elements between Church ritual and elements from the "old religion". I think you might find it interesting if you can get over the shock of what you originally thought. Does that help? Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:00 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/01 12:05 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: EARL CRANDALL (DDSJ06A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS MIKE: 5/31 -- 11:16 p.m. Glad to hear from you -- hope all is well with you and family. Also glad you "got" 'PALMS' and enjoyed it. I just got back from R.I. -- a wild and windy weekend!! It stayed cool all weekend -- never getting over 65. BTW -- did you get the packet (the plays) I sent you a few weeks back? I hope so. Would be interested in what you thought of them, and if you still think you might plan on doing one yourself ... I am going to perform "'Lisha K." at the CRANDALL family reunion in JUL. I will be in the Boston area again in a few weeks. We got a motel in WOOOOOBURN [HA!]. Will spend most of the time in Salem and environs. I've read and reread those poems of HPL quite a few times now -- even ran across his name in King's "The Stand". Using one of his lines again ... From the lute of Israfel PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:01 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/01 12:25 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS re posting Margaret's stuff here: Where else??? Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:01 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/01 12:37 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: C STEINFUHRER (WPKJ41A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Yeah, "Proclus"; I'd like for you to elaborate a bit. I've been a LDS member for 25 years and never knew of this stuff. Enlighten us, please. Charles PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:04 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 05/31 10:59 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: BONNIE WRIGHT (FVNM12A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Proclus; This physical existence will pass. I keep on wanting to see what is beyond this mortal sphere. Thank you for your insight. bonnie (who's kite is free-flight) PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:07 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/01 12:25 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS proclus: thank you thank you! BTW, are you a friend of Mike Quinn? Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:15 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/02/1993 Cindy Nope, I never even met Quinn. I wish I knew him. Maybe he could find me a copy of MORMONISM AND THE MAGICAL WORLDVIEW! I think my next read, after I finish the Alvin Maker series is going to be DRAWING DOWN THE MOON. I expect to find even more parallels with Wicca and other "modern practices". I often wonder what Quinn would think of the big deal I'm making out of these Wiccan parallels. They ARE important to me, but it's hard to get any historical insight out of them. I am certainly in Quinn's debt. If he and others had not pushed so hard on the anointed quorum material, we may never have given Wicca the attention it deserves. round dance of the disciples proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:19 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: MDPB52A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/02/1993 cj As a matter of fact, Trey posted some lovely material on Indian folklore, as it relates to the Wiccan parallels. I can repost it if you like. It is really not my area of study. Mad Moon Drummer proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:20 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/02 6:19 PM TO: ALL FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS The following are taken from M. Toscan's "Rending the Veil: Temple Ritual and Patterns of Change": (MT begins by acknowledging the negative association with the veiling of women's faces with the Muslim custom and its representation of women's subordination to men in that culture and ours. She explains the paradoxical nature of ritual and symbol in some detail. Then she offers some alternative possibilities for the meanings of the veil in the temple.) (she also refers to the following scriptures: Gen. 38:14-19, Gen. 24:65, 2 Sam. 19:4, 2 Sam 15:30, Ezek. 12, Exodus 34:33-35, Exodus 34:5; Exo. 16:10) and in other myths: "...a veil image accords with the myths of other ancient cultures, where deities were often portrayed as hiding their dazzling brighteness behind a mask or veil, both to protect humans from injury because of their glory and also to see without being seen. In some of these cultures, veils were cially associated with earth and fertility goddesses. For example, one complex section of the Hymn to Demeter, a poem dating from the 7th C. B.C. depicts the Greek goddess Demeter as being veiled while seated on a sheepskin. The symbols of the veil and the sheepskin are believed to have had ritual significance in the Eleusian mystery cult, in which the demi-god Herakles figured prominently....in this ritual context, the veil, which is thrown over the head of the initiate, serves as a symbol of rebirth. A similar ritual usage of the vail is found in the Gilgamesh epic. Gilgamesh, a hero like Herakles, while engaged on a heroic quest to find the plant of life, encounters Siduri, a goddess of wisdom and the patroness of wine merchants. Gilgamesh, clad in a skin garment, approaches the veiled goddess to ask her how he may find his way to a boatman to ferry him across some great waters. Here again, the veil and the skins are associated with the hero's rite of passage. Another example is found the The Odyssey, where the skipwrecked Odysseus is swimming maked in a treacherous sea, desperately trying to reach shore. The goddess Leucothoe comes to his rescue and gives him her veil to tie around his waist, thus empowering him to reach land safely. This entire scene is replete with rebirth imagery, suggesting the Odysseus has ritually passed into a new phase of life. In this instance, the veil, tied around the hero's waist, represents an umbilicus, connecting him with PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:21 PM the divine powers that are protecting him. "In each of these examples, the veil is connected, not with the inferiority of women, but with the goddess as the keeper of the gate or mystery which the initiate, either naked or skin-clad, must penetrate in order to obtain knowledge of a new or unseen world. The veil is also symbolically connected with the hymen, and as such, represents the covering over the holy place, the inner sanctuary of the temple, which was anciently thought of as the body of the goddess, into which the god or hero or priest/king had to enter to obtain hidden wisdom or power. ========================================>>>> (more later) PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:30 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/02/1993 Continuing along with Quinn and by the way Proclus, Margaret Toscano's essay 'Put on Your Strength O Daughters of Zion: Claiming Priesthood and Knowing the Mother' immediately follows the Quinn article but I'm unsure as to whether to attach any real importance to the sequence...perhaps Trey can ask Maxine Hanks about that... Quinn notes that the local patriarchs in pioneer Utah also referred to women's priesthood rights. He gives an example from Charles W. Hyde, a stake president and last mand admitted to the Nauvoo Quorum, blessing and another from patriarch Ola N. Liljenquist. The latter is interestin since it indicated that this birhtright is by premortal foreordination. According to Quinn Liljenquist made explicit what is implied in Mormon theology - that women were also forechosen to priesthood authority before birth. Mormon scripture's most detailed view of the premortal world did not differentiate between men and women in the forechoosing to authority - Abraham 3:22-23...females are among 'all' God's intelligences and spirits who were noble, good, and forechosen (or foreordained) to be leaders and to receive authority. Currently for males this foreordination to authority is fulfilled in LDS priesthood office. For females this foreordination is fuliflled in their receiving the priesthood endowment and opportunities for church service. For those who marshal other proof texts that women do not hold priesthood separate from their husbands Quinn cites a 1845 sermon from Brigham Young: they [LDS women] 'have no right to meddle in the affairs of the Kingdom of God. Outside the pale of this they have a right to meddle because many of them are more sagacious & shrewd & more competent [than men] to attend to things of financial affairs.' but 'they never can hold the keys of Priesthood apart from their husbands.' Quinn avers that this earliest limitation on a woman's ecclesiatical authority did not deny that endowed women receive a conferral of Melchizedek priesthood. Instead Young first denies that women have any claim to 'administrative authority' within the church and secondly a women cannot hold the keys of the Priesthood by herself, for the reason that this right of presidency comes to women only through the second anointing. These early statements by Young were not denials that Mormon women receive priesthood through the endowment but rather the matter seems to hinge on women receiving the KEYS PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:30 PM of presidency with their husbands through the second anointing. This 'fullness of priesthood' confers on women the right to rule and reign as eternal queens and preistesses. Dan the Man proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:31 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/02 6:19 PM TO: ALL FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS The following are taken from M. Toscan's "Rending the Veil: Temple Ritual and Patterns of Change": (MT begins by acknowledging the negative association with the veiling of women's faces with the Muslim custom and its representation of women's subordination to men in that culture and ours. She explains the paradoxical nature of ritual and symbol in some detail. Then she offers some alternative possibilities for the meanings of the veil in the temple.) (she also refers to the following scriptures: Gen. 38:14-19, Gen. 24:65, 2 Sam. 19:4, 2 Sam 15:30, Ezek. 12, Exodus 34:33-35, Exodus 34:5; Exo. 16:10) and in oWiccans5 ======== ther myths: "...a veil image accords with the myths of other ancient cultures, where deities were often portrayed as hiding their dazzling brighteness behind a mask or veil, both to protect humans from injury because of their glory and also to see without being seen. In some of these cultures, veils were cially associated with earth and fertility goddesses. For example, one complex section of the Hymn to Demeter, a poem dating from the 7th C. B.C. depicts the Greek goddess Demeter as being veiled while seated on a sheepskin. The symbols of the veil and the sheepskin are believed to have had ritual significance in the Eleusian mystery cult, in which the demi-god Herakles figured prominently....in this ritual context, the veil, which is thrown over the head of the initiate, serves as a symbol of rebirth. A similar ritual usage of the vail is found in the Gilgamesh epic. Gilgamesh, a hero like Herakles, while engaged on a heroic quest to find the plant of life, encounters Siduri, a goddess of wisdom and the patroness of wine merchants. Gilgamesh, clad in a skin garment, approaches the veiled goddess to ask her how he may find his way to a boatman to ferry him across some great waters. Here again, the veil and the skins are associated with the hero's rite of passage. Another example is found the The Odyssey, where the skipwrecked Odysseus is swimming maked in a treacherous sea, desperately trying to reach shore. The goddess Leucothoe comes to his rescue and gives him her veil to tie around his waist, thus empowering him to reach land safely. This entire scene is replete with rebirth imagery, suggesting the Odysseus has ritually passed into a new phase of life. In this instance, the veil, tied around the hero's waist, represents an umbilicus, connecting him with PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:31 PM the divine powers that are protecting him. "In each of these examples, the veil is connected, not with the inferiority of women, but with the goddess as the keeper of the gate or mystery which the initiate, either naked or skin-clad, must penetrate in order to obtain knowledge of a new or unseen world. The veil is also symbolically connected with the hymen, and as such, represents the covering over the holy place, the inner sanctuary of the temple, which was anciently thought of as the body of the goddess, into which the god or hero or priest/king had to enter to obtain hidden wisdom or power. ========================================>>>> (more later) PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:36 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/02 8:18 PM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS (cont. #3) "In the Mormon temple ceremony, rebirth is a predominant theme. The initiates are first washed and cleansed as if from the blood of birth, are clad in coats of skin, represented by the white priesthood undergardents; and then; like newborns, they are given new names. Thus, they are brought out of the world of the profane into the world of the sacred and are sent on a spiritual question. They are told that their models in this pilgrimage are their spiritual progenitors, Adam and Eve. The purpose of their search is to obtain the mysteries of godliness and to eat of the fruit of the tree of life. To do this, they must receive instruction from angels, pass certain tests, and finally approach the veil where they will receive final empowerment from God. On this spiritual journey, the initiates are given, piece by piece, sacred clothing which symbolizes the bestowal upon them of grace, power, spirit, knowledge, and authority--in other words, the priesthood of God--that allows them to bring their quest to fruition." (from M. Toscano's "Rending the Veil") Let's chew on this awhile before I post more. What say ye? Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:48 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/02/1993 WONDERFUL! Cindy, I have a sloppy, unsophisticated story to tell in this connection. In the week that I learned about these interesting veil concepts, my wife and I made the two hour drive to the Chicago Temple. I was really excited about this material so I wanted to share it with her. >>>>>>>>>> I read it to her in the car on the way. We had a lengthy discussion, but it was mostly one way. Julie is very cautious about discussing the temple. We were in the prayer circle. During the ritual something happened. I noticed a strange kind of celestial traffic going on. It is difficult to be more specific, but it Goddess was the key. Afterwards, Julie educated me on what she has always known, that the prayer circle is "for Heavenly Mother". She is not IN the circle. That day was certainly a rebirth experience for me. Isis Unvieled proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 8:49 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/02/1993 WONDERFUL! Cindy, I have a sloppy, unsophisticated story to tell in this connection. In the week that I learned about these interesting veil concepts, my wife and I made the two hour drive to the Chicago Temple. I was really excited about this material so I wanted to share it with her. >>>>>>>>>> I read it to her in the car on the way. We had a lengthy discussion, but it was mostly one way. Julie is very cautious about discussing the temple. We were in the prayer circle. During the ritual something happened. I noticed a strange kind of celestial traffic going on. It is difficult to be more specific, but the Goddess was the key. Afterwards, Julie educated me on what she has always known, that the prayer circle is "for Heavenly Mother". She is not IN the circle. That day was certainly a rebirth experience for me. Isis Unvieled proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 9:00 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: DDSJ06A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/02/1993 Earl Thank you for the pack. I will certainly be reading your little creation very soon. Unfortunately, it will be a few years before I get enough time to write a play on my favorite ancestor, Henriette Wholley. It is a great idea that you got from that symposium though. >>>>>>>>>>>> Have fun in Salem, and make sure you read more Lovecraft before you go. It is very appropriate! We sure enjoyed our trip to Salem. Hi Matt! proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/02/93 9:06 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: WPKJ41A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/02/1993 Charles If you want to learn more about Wiccan parallels, just hang out. That is the subject at hand and we all have alot more to say about it. If you are really interested, try setting your date back and viewing some of the earlier posts. I reposted some introductory material not long ago, buyt some of it got pulled. If you are still in the dark, just tell me or ask some questions, and I will be happy to bring you up to speed. We often get newcomers through here and I like to keep some basic material around. let's whirl proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/05/93 5:52 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/03 12:11 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CHRISTOPHER JONES (MDPB52A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Howdy Pro-dude..., How 'bout parallels between Indian myths, folklore, and the Mormon rituals, and beliefs? Maybe I sound redundant. cj PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/05/93 6:21 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/05/1993 Skipping along here we read that as in Brigham's 1845 statement, church administrative powere is the real context for all subsequent denials that women have priesthood. If women have priesthood, the often unexpressed fear goes, they might challenge the administrative powers of males who have been ordainded deacons, teachers, etc. Conversely the argument is that since women have not been ordained to one of those offices, they do not have priesthood. First Presidency counselor Charles W. Penrose made this argument specific in 1921: "Sisters have said to me sometimes, 'But I hold the Priesthood with my husband.' 'Well,' I asked, 'what office do you hold in the Priesthood.' Then they could not say much more. The sisters are not ordained to any office in the Priesthood." However, such reasoning ignores Joseph Smith's earliest revelation defining the priesthood in D&C 84. Ordained offices are not the priesthood but only 'appendages' to the priesthood. According to an 1835 revelation, even the apostleship is an appendage to the Melchizedek priesthood, for 'all other authorities or offices in the church are appendages to this priesthood' (107:5). Priesthood then exists independently of church offices but church offices are appendages whcih cannot exist without the priesthood. As Church president J.F. Smith told general conference, 'If an Apostle has any authority at all, he derives if from the Melchisedek Priesthood...all the offices in the Church are simply appendages to the Melchisedek Priesthood, and grow out of it.' A women does not need an appendage or church office to have priesthood. According to Joseph's teachings to the Relief Society and to the Anointed Quorum, a woman receives Melchizedek priesthood when she receives the endowment. The confusion of priesthood office with priesthood has characterized many contemporary discussions of women and priesthood according to Quinn. However, just as counselors in the First Presidency were 'ordained' by Joseph, Emmas was 'ordained to expound the Scriptures,' and her counselors were ordained to preside over the Nauvoo Relief Society. In the 19th century the word 'ordain' was also used for appointing persons to proselyting missions and to heal. However, Quinn states that he has found no evidence that Mormon men ever ordained a woman to a specific priesthood office of the church. Thus the documents and leaders of early Mormonism affirm that women receive priesthood through the endowment. New PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/05/93 6:22 PM revelation would only confirm this reality no create it. However, unaware of the female priesthood theology in Joseph's Anointed Quorum, current LDS presidents and apostles regard new revelation as necessary to change a 20th century definition that is now regarded as doctrinal. For example, Pres. Spencer Kimball announced in June 1978: 'We pray to God to reveal hsi mind and we always will, but we don't expect any revelation regarding women and the priesthood.' This was just after his announcement of the revelation authorizing the priesthood to men of black African descent.... danny proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/05/93 6:23 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/03 5:01 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: DEBRA LIENING (WSPK04A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Mike: Your references to blessings by John Smith prompted me to review some ancestral blessings. That name seemed to ring a bell. You might be interested in a blessing he gave my gggg grandmother, Phebe Melissa Knight Twitchell. (I don't have a date): Sister Phebe, I lay my hands upon thy head in the name of Jesus of Nazareth and seal a Father's Blessing upon thee. Thou art a Daughter of Abraham and an heir to the priesthood which was sealed upon his head and his posterity with all the benefits of the same in common with thy companion. It is thy privilege to have faith to heal the sick in thine own family by laying on of hands, also to preserve thy children from the power of the destroyer. It is thy privilege to Save thy Dead friends and living ones and as thou art a mother in Israel thy name shall be had in honorable remembrance in the church for ever. Thou shalt have an inheritance in the land of Zion with the children of Ephraim with thy companion and children which shall be numerous. The number of thy years shall be according to the desire of thy heart even to see the restoration of Israel to see Zion established in peace and nothing to hurt or destroy. Thou shalt participate in all the Blessings sealed upon the head of thy companion. Be a comfort to him all his Days. Shall every desire of thy heart be satisfied to depart and be with Christ if faithful. I seal all these blessings upon thy head and seal you up to Eternal life. Even so. Amen. Signed J.L. Smith Also to Esther Ogilvie Adamson in Palmyra Utah 30 Jan 1856 in a similar vein: "thou art heir entitled to all the blessings of the everlasting gospel, evel all as a daughter of Abraham through the loins of Ephraim. Thou art entitled to hold a portion of the Holy priesthood with thy husband, and to act in thy own sphere and family." Of interest to me is the fact that these declarations re: priesthood are linked to husband and family. In the Smith blessings to male ancestors - there is mention of family but not of spouse. Beautiful blessings. Debra in MI for one more week - then off to San Antonio, TX Back online August 20. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/05/93 6:26 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/02 11:28 PM TO: ALL FROM: KAREN HARVEY 06 (GFRS62A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS I have a question - my patriaracal blessing promised me many years ago that "as long as the priesthood was honored in my home, evil forces would stand rebuke." Years have gone by, my husband has gone inactive taking with him two of my sons..I alone have remained active and true. I felt that the evil forces totally surrounded my home - did I have the priesthood through my temple marriage? Can anyone explain> this promise and how it might have been fulfilled? Thanks! Keep wondering...k. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/05/93 6:29 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: GFRS62A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/05/1993 Keep wondering k. I am in an awful hurry tonight, but I promise a reply to your most interesting note in a day or two. birds of a feather proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/05/93 6:31 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/04 12:02 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: EARL CRANDALL (DDSJ06A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS MIKE: I heard from "my" publishers today that they really liked the play "'Lisha K." a lot. It is a part of my latest book on five Charlestown, R.I. families, being published even as we speak ... Hope you're all well. "From the lute of Israfel" PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/05/93 6:32 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/04 12:28 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: C STEINFUHRER (WPKJ41A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Mike, I went over to the "Wiccan" BB and found a post with a long list of books....I went to the library, and found some.....an none mentioned anything I have seen, heard, or smelled in an LDS church. Please elaborate. Charles PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/06/93 10:41 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: KBHD86A SUBJECT: ABOUT HEAVENLY MOTHR DATE: 06/06/1993 Steph What interesting questions! Of course, anything I could say would be speculative. I love speculations, so here goes! Is there a Mother Superior in heaven? Possibly, but I suppose that things are more egalitarian on Kolob. Your other question is really "what is the Goddess?" The dogmatists around here will be quick to point out that we just don't know any thing about Her. On the other hand there is space for some educated guesses based on some of the evidence. While the Goddess is not well defined in Mormonism, other cultures have gone to great lengths to describe Her. Virtually every description of Her includes something about Her having many aspects or "faces"; "the goddess of many names". This is very different from gods, who tend to eminate in very well defined ways. This gives rise to the inflexiblity of monotheistic patriarchal traditions. Thus, seems to make sense to say that my God is not your God since he differs in these ways; a, b, c. Conversely, it seems to make less sense to say that my Goddess is not your Goddess just because we view Her a little differently. I suspect that the Goddess of the witches is in fact the very Goddess of Mormonism. This is one of the things we can discuss down in the Mormo{Wiccans subject. **Now, as for God's polygamous hoard,** >>>> The concept of plurality of goddesses is often a difficult one. There are two things that can help us understand it. One is eternal progression. Mormons beleive that mortal women on earth are goddesses in embryo. They can become goddesses. It logically follows that there are innumerable goddesses in the heavens. How did they get there? By following in the footsteps of those who hae gone before. It does not really matter who you emulate, as long as they are shooting for the BIG WHITE MARBLE. They are all goddesses, and it seems to be the intelligent thing to try and follow in their footsteps, whoever they happen to be. For men, similar things have been said about Jesus, Enoch, Abraham, and Pres. Benson. It is really just taking PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/06/93 10:42 PM advantage of the good examples that you find around you. forms proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/06/93 10:43 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/05 6:53 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: STEPHENIE ORRIS (KBHD86A) SUBJECT: ABOUT HEAVENLY MOTHR Proclus, I have a question. I've heard here many times that all humans had different parents in the pre-existance. God being the father but the mothers were different entities. Now, is there a Mother Superior? You know, a 'head mother' who sits side by side with heavenly father? Who exactly would you worship ... which mother? AND is this Goddess the same Goddess as wiccans choose to worship? confused, Steph PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/06/93 10:46 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/05 8:41 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: KAREN HARVEY 06 (GFRS62A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Michael, dont leave yet - I have copied down everything you have written, and then stayed up until 2:00 reading Wiccans in the other section. I am student of truth, but also a completely converted LDS. I also work with Native Americans, and as they have gotten to trust and know me, speak freely of the Native American religion..I cannot tell you how many similarities there with the LDS philosophy..> of course, I believe there was a originial source of truth, and what we are seeing are fragments of truth in the adultrated form....Masonic, Native American Culture..and even the Dead Scrolls and other early Christian writings. I am not afraid to go anywhere to find truth, but my question concerning the "priesthood in my home" when no one was honoring it, has been a puzzle. I did decide after going to the temple with my son, now on a mission...from something the Mission President wife said to the brides, and new missionaries, that I had received the Priesthood when we were married. That came through loud and clear, and perhaps explains much for me....some have said it was the "home teachers"...who seldom came. It was me alone...I would love to explore this. I am not sure yet where you personally are in all this, but as a seeker of truth I am always ready to listen...I have no desire at all to have the priesthood nor to challenge men in the priesthood the way we understand it. Motherhood and teaching faithful sons is as much as I care to deal with...waiting, karen PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/06/93 10:52 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: GFRS62A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/06/1993 k I know many people who have received this promise in their blessings. Many of these families ironically experienced divorce. The priesthood could not be honored in a household dominated by the "evil step parent", when evil forces surround the home. I went through a similar experience in >> childhood. Virtually every one of my aunts and uncles had a divorce and went inactive for a time. How can we honor the priesthood in these contexts? I think it is very difficult, if not impossible. A few years ago I ran across a picture of my Mom and Dad, and me as a baby. My Mother had a smile like I've never seen, and there were none of the worry lines. She looked like she was in heaven. I think she was. Unfortunately, this idyllic picture was not going to last. At least we tasted what life can be like when it's good. Our bad experiences teach us to appreciate the beautiful ones. So, you said your husband went inactive. How was it before he went inactive? Maybe the promise was fulfilled then. Promises in patriarchal blessings depend on many factors. Is it possible that the promise could have been fulfilled, but then wasn't because of some other factor. I am anxious to see how these kinds of situations will play out when the female priesthood becomes more widely understood. It could get really interesting. >>>>>>>>> These things shall give thee experience proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/06/93 10:57 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: GFRS62A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/06/1993 According to Quinn, from the 1890 Manifesto ostensibly banning polygamy to the early 1900s, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve redefined many LDS doctrines. The relation of women to the priesthood endowment was only one of these redefinitions. However, the First Presidency continued to authorize women to anoint women for healing if only because of the church practice of using consecreated oil directly on the affected parts of the body. In Dec. 1935 the Presiding Bishopric and First Presidency discussed a report that Apostle Widtsoe had instructed missionaries in Europe to 'anoint the head only.' The presidency disagreed with this change and allowed the older practices to continue. But when men stopped anointing various parts of men's bodies with consecrated oil for healing, it became possible to exclude women from anointing and blessing the sick. That policy change did not become final for another decade. In 1946 Apostle J.F. Smith informed the Relief Society general presidency that it was no longer approved 'for sisters to wash and anoint other sisters.' Instead, he said that women should 'send for the Elders of the Church to come and administer to the sick and afflicted.' Thus a century of Mormon women's sacred ordinances no longer had the approval of the church's hierarchy. An era had officially ended. The BOM warned that pngts of the spirit such as healing would die only through unbelief (Mormo. 10:8, 11, 19, 26). LDS women have the same access to pngts of the spirit as men and can exercise their faith in healing. Anciently the apostles tried to circumscribe the exercise of spiritual pngts by condemning a person who healed the sick but who was not a follower of Jesus. Jesus answered their objection with the words, 'Forbid him not; for he that is not against us is for us.' (Luke 9:50) Mormon men, according to Quinn, need this reminded updated, 'Forbid her not, for she that is not against us is for us.' No woman needs a man's permission to lay her hands on her child's head and utter a blessing. Whether by priesthood endowment or spiritual pngt, an LDS woman may give a blessing to anyone, in or out of her family, in or out of church. According to Quinn, to some LDS men this is a frightening prospect. Several even reportedly threatened to kill a devoted Mormon (SLC Mar 11, 1989) who recently suggested that women should have the opportunity for ordination to every priesthood office. A death threat has no bearing on what God confers on women, but it is, again according to PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/06/93 10:58 PM Quinn, unfortunate evidence of misogyny in modern Mormonism. danny....who will now go help the better half... proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/06/93 11:25 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: GFRS62A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/06/1993 ps k If you go back over to the Wiccan board, check for a subject on SPIRAL DANCE. You may find a lady named LUCINDA CHAPMAN (JWRJ68A). She is a sort of mentor for me from the old Arts Club BB group. Say hi to her for me. proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/06/93 11:32 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: WPKJ41A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/06/1993 Charles So much of the material published by the witches is about calendars and spells. This is what made it so difficult to make the comparison with Mormonism. We first began to suspect that there were mormonish practices within modern witchcraft when Robert Anton Wilson suggested that The Craft was really a form of freemasonry for women. Indeed, freemasons in Wilson's novels refer to "The Craft" instead of "the Lodge". Wilson is no mean authority on the subject since he is an initiate in many masonic and rosicrucian style lodges. He is also a white cord witch. Honestly, I'd been searching for these connections ever since '85. I even did an anthropology project on it. I really got toasted that time. You see, it is actually quite easy to demonstrate similarities between Mormonism and Paganism. That's been my modus operandi ever since I came to Prodigy. We can certainly do some more of that. But no one had been able to document connections between Mormonism and the archetypal modern pagan tradition, Wicca. Finally, last summer it started to happen here. I read, the Toscano's breakthrough book, STRANGERS IN PARADOX. In chapter 16, A Kingdom of Priestesses, they describe what the prayer circle group was like at the time that Joseph instituted the practice. There is much that I could say about this on another occasion. Next on my stack was THE SPIRAL DANCE. It became immediately obvious that the historical prayer circle group had many of the essential qualities of the modern witch coven. Many night's were spent feverishly exchanging correspondence with St. Andrew. We were unsure whether we were ready to bring it to light. We dared suppose that we had found space for the Goddess in Mormon ritual. We were amazed that our view of the Church had been transformed and that this transformation revolved around the prayer circle. But there is more... the sacred dance proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/06/93 11:41 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: WSPK04A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/06/1993 Debra still in MI It is nice to meet someone with some "firsthand info". You know, the harder you look, the more of these kinds of stories that you find. It is really difficult to understand recent statements out of SLC that these are isolated events, or that the statements are taken out of context. Given the sheer bulk of material, those are ridiculous assertions. It is time for some of us to get out of our little boxes of preconception and face the history. It is OUR history. It now seems clear that Joseph taught that women have some form of priesthood, and many of the members had no problem with it. This is very significant since many of them expressed misogynist views. Joseph held no such views. Quinn reports that two weeks after Joseph organized the Female Relief Society he announced his intention to confer the priesthood on women. On Mar. 30, 1842 he told them that 'the Society should move according to the ancient Priesthood' and that he was 'going to make of this Society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch's day - as in Paul's day.' High Priestess proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/10/93 6:10 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/07 1:29 AM TO: ALL FROM: KAREN HARVEY 06 (GFRS62A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS MichaeL- they cut off public responses on this note..weird, I dont yet understand their criteria..I appreciated your response and have copied several of your posts. My h suffers from BiPolar which surfaced,full blown about 10 years ago..a symptom of his illness. He was Seventies President, former Activity VP BYU, Hong Kong Mission, a very powerful person with a very deep belief system..but he came from a bad back ground of abuse. All this surfaced about 40 when he began recalling this abuse as our boys became teens..and the first symptom to show was contention with the bishop, and from there down hill..I can honestly say that on many occasions the spirit was so bad in our home that he seemed possessed to me. This spilled over into the whole family. I nearly didnt saveWiccans6 ======== my middle son, who took the brunt of h rages. I recall one night literally screaming at whatever was in my home that "they" were not going to have my family - they would have to go through me! And in the back of my mind I kept thinking, "you and many others will be tried as if> if may seem beyond endurance, but so long as you feel to honor the priesthood, the evil forces will stand rebuked." I think you are right - the priesthood is shared power, the administrative arm given to men, creative and mothering given to women. And in todays society, participating in the administrative arm is as important to the identity of a man as is motherhood for a woman. Crossing those roles creates confusion. I do believe I have the Priesthood. I got it when I was married, and now my oldest son is serving a terrific mission and truly honors his priesthood. When I got him on that plane I nearly collapsed, because for the first time> I was no longer fighting alone - I had actually gotten someone on my side, and it is such a powerful feeling knowing that his belief system is so strong. Women envying the administrative powers of men are not honoring their own calling as women...my sons are tough because I gave them every ounce of energy I could. I did not have energy for anything else. In my mind, the promise was fulfilled, even if my h never does get better...I believe in fairness and justice. I just keep growing, and delight in the strength of my sons..what more could a mom ask for. I honored my priesthood. Thank you ! karen PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/10/93 6:11 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: GFRS62A SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/10/1993 karen And, thank you for your lovely story. Best Wishes to you and h more later proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/10/93 6:16 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/10/1993 Cindy I think your notes just ran out of time. Did you get to read my response? Did you try setting the calendar back? I think that material is vital to this topic and merits much further discussion. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/11/93 7:12 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/10 11:16 AM TO: KAREN HARVEY 06 (GFRS62A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Karen re "women who want administrative powers are not honoring their calling as women": Being female is a biological fact, not a "calling". Are you preaching more "separate spheres" rhetoric from the 18th century Enlightenment? Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/11/93 7:13 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/10 6:47 PM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: JOHN GREENLEY JR (BWWK41C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy, One of the (many) great things about being the parent of different sex twins is the insight it has given me into how much of our charactor & behavior is related to what sex we are. I've watched them grow for 8 years, and somethings were differant from the start. T.T.F.N.; John (LDS) PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/11/93 7:14 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/10 7:48 PM TO: JOHN GREENLEY JR (BWWK41C) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS John: I have never argued that males and females are the same! I would wholeheartedly agree that not only are there plumbing differences, but hormones and other chemicals may even cause males and females to think and perceive the world differently. There are also many, many similarities -- AND many differences that are socially constructed. I advocate that the socially constructed differences ought to be challenged. I also firmly believe that the physical differences are not a justification for misogyny and the placing of one role on all women as "their place" or "their special calling." Individual women may have many individual talents, strengths, weaknesses, and "callings." There is no one "Calling" for ALL women, except as applies to all people, ie, the Savior's teachings about love, forgiveness, etc. Cindy \ doer of many things PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/11/93 7:17 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/11 12:59 AM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: KAREN HARVEY 06 (GFRS62A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS I suspect I am, Cindy, for I had the glorious opportunity of going into role reversal. It was at that point I became a student of role conflict and what it is doing to our society. In the secular world, I personally have no problem with women excelling in any area they chose. But in the Church, it is defined. To fracture that role definition in this life is to create confusion. I really feel that men> are being bashed big time right now. A man who honors his Priesthood the way a woman understands Motherhood - and in no way do I refer to this a biological calling - will enjoy focus. There is plenty of lattitude there for each to enjoy a fufilling definition of "success". I also feel that women who wish to challenge the authority and limitations of the Priesthood have virtually no understanding of the dimensions of their own calling. karen PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/11/93 7:17 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/11 1:57 AM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: PEGGY KLEMETSON (XCBT33B) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy, Enjoyed your article in the Exponent. We have a good friend who went into the MTC yesterday. Hope she was "hand picked" Peggy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/11/93 7:18 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/10 11:22 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS proclus: No, I did not find your reponse, and yes, of course I backdated in an attempt to find it. Are you the only respondent? Although I love your posts, I hope you aren't the only one. Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/11/93 7:19 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/10 11:34 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS proclus: This last week's stay in Utah with relatives for the funeral generated some interesting conversations. On this subject, I was discussing with an elderly aunt. She made the statement that she has always felt that she could bless her children, etc. She completely missed the point that the organization no longer advocates, teaches or authorizes blessings performed by women. Women so doing are considered insubordinate and apostate. Yet my aunt is a devoted member who sees no inconsistencies between her beliefs and the Church's teachings. Is this just one more symptom of members' abilities to compartmentalize their brains in order to survive life in the Church? I find it so frustrating! Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/11/93 7:20 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/11 1:19 AM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: KAREN HARVEY 06 (GFRS62A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy, "survive life in the church?" I guess I am missing out on something which has gotten me very curious. Since I am General Manager of three large business, sole provider, and mother of three boys - I found myself barely able to survive the real world, and only greatful to make it to church once a week. If I felt for one minute I was just "surviving life in the church," dont think I could make it> what do you preceive as being just able to survive? What is in the church which you feel is difficult to deal with, men solely holding the Priesthood? Curious - Karen PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/11/93 7:21 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/11 1:19 AM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: KAREN HARVEY 06 (GFRS62A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy, "survive life in the church?" I guess I am missing out on something which has gotten me very curious. Since I am General Manager of three large business, sole provider, and mother of three boys - I found myself barely able to survive the real world, and only greatful to make it to church once a week. If I felt for one minute I was just "surviving life in the church," dont think I could make it> what do you preceive as being just able to survive? What is in the church which you feel is difficult to deal with, men solely holding the Priesthood? Curious - Karen PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/11/93 7:25 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: XXVV32C SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/11/1993 Cindy One more thing, I agree that members are compartmentalizing their religious practice. Mormonism is much bigger than what is taught and approved by the Brethren. brain segments of.... proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/12/93 6:20 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/11 8:54 AM TO: KAREN HARVEY 06 (GFRS62A) FROM: BONNIE WRIGHT (FVNM12A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Karen; But not all women are biologically mothers who want to be. We have the natural ability to be nurturer/creative. bonnie (the reproach) PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/12/93 6:22 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/11 12:07 PM TO: KAREN HARVEY 06 (GFRS62A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Karen (sigh): OK, one more person to explain this to -- Here are the correlaries: Motherhood -- Fatherhood (biological) Motherhood -- Fatherhood (social, as in responsibili- ties to care and teach for) Priestesshood -- Priesthood (spiritual) >> If you have paid attention, in the Temple we are NOT ordained to be Kings and MOTHERS, Priests and MOTHERS. Women do not wear maternity clothes in the Temple. BOTH parents have enormous responsibilities to teach, train, love, care for, etc., their children. Motherhood is not a good reason to exclude women from the decision making councils of the Church. The two responsibilities are not mutually exclusive. Motherhood does not make women stupid or incompetent. It's a smokescreen. Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/12/93 6:23 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/11 12:07 PM TO: PEGGY KLEMETSON (XCBT33B) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Peggy: I haven't gotten my copy yet, but I know the article. Glad you enjoyed it. My missionary experience was doubly trying because I had a Utah politician as a mission president, and we saw eye-to-eye on virtually nothing. He had his political bent to his missionary approach which made it very difficult for me. Oh, well! I hope the deities accept my offering in the spirit I intended it. Anyway, I hope your friend's experience will be a good one. TC, Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/12/93 6:25 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/11 6:09 PM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: JOHN GREENLEY JR (BWWK41C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy, I do seem to see indications that much of what feminist see as socially created is inherent at birth. For example, female = pink is a cliche, but that was the first colour my daughter wanted around her. (Her room wasdecorated in blue & grey, and we were far to busy to worry about which kid was wearing pink/blue/or what.) I do agree that individuals differ from the group. For example, it seems to be a fact that men can generally run faster then women. However, I am well aware that most women can probably out-run me. Sex differentiation is facinating to me. Have you read the studies that found that men / women perceive directions & navigate differently? -T.T.F.N. John (LDS) PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/12/93 6:25 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/11 9:36 PM TO: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) FROM: KAREN HARVEY 06 (GFRS62A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Cindy - I appreciate the time and effort you took to explain that I was not paying attention in the temple...maybe its because we live a full days drive from any temple that it is hard to become a student of everything said there.... My original question to Michael was regarding a promise made in my PB that "because of the Priesthood in my home, the evil forces would stand rebuked". My conclusion was> that I share the priesthood with my husband, so while he has not honored it any way - did not go the temple when my son went on his mission- there was Priesthood in my home through me. This makes sense...from there the discussion deteriorated to 18th Century whatever, to women capable of carrying adminstrative positions in the church - I thought they already did - to motherhood is a smoke screen...to....I am missing something here. Behind the "reproach" and the "instructional" is an attitude of confrontation.."survival in the church? compartmentalization?" Have I stumbled into Mormon feminism? I am interested in discussing this, but > not with "sighs" and condescending reproach. I have noticed with some of the younger women in the ward a lot of depression in making decision between career and being home. They are educated, and often angry locked into the traditional role of mom....I am a worn out mom, but am now seeing the results of all that good mothering in my sons...and yes, men have shared responsibilities in raising children, but that is an ideal. It is the women, the mothers, who are transferring culture. This responsibility alone negates for me any desire to challenge male administrative roles in the church. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/12/93 6:38 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/11 12:07 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS proclus: Thanks for sharing the story! I agree with your wife, that the Goddess is here making Herself manifest to anyone who will hear and see with non-misogynist ears and eyes. I have a couple more Carol Lynn performances of Mother Wove the Morning this month. Everytime I see it I learn something new. Cindy PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/12/93 6:39 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/12 1:54 AM TO: ALL FROM: CINDY LE FEVRE (XXVV32C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS John: (cursed by the NMPR) I have read lots of studies, but not that particular one. I'd love it if you would share it with us. Thanks! Cindy \ always seeking more light and knowledge PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/12/93 6:43 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TO: ALL SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS DATE: 06/12/1993 Sarah, the whole point of Quinn's article is that Mormon women who receive their temple endowments by definition or tradition already hold the Melchizedek priesthood. It is a priesthood without office but a priesthood none the less. As Quinn observes in his conclusion: for LDS women Melchizedek priesthood does not come in stages of ordination as with mormon men but rather in the temple endowment. Historically LDS women also have received church authority to exercise their Melchizedek priesthood power in behalf of others. The temple endowment has not changed in fundamental ways since its introduction. The endowment gives today exactly what it conferred from 1842 to 1846. During those four years Joseph and those he endowed all affirmed that women receive the Melchizedek priesthood when they receive the endowment. The documents of 19th century Mormon history also indicate, according to Quinn, that women have been heirs and recipients of the Melchizedek priesthood since the days of biblical patriarchs. Melchizedek priesthood conferral has always been independent of the offices of the LDS church. Mormon women already have God's priesthood of spiritual power. Without asking permission they may draw on the power of endowment. However, it is necessary for endowed women to receive permission of the church to use their priesthood in church settings to administer the sacrament, baptize, confirm, or administer temple ordinances. I realize the nuances of this can be confusing but the issue seems quite alive and the 'spider women' of the church may yet eat their mates...... danny proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/12/93 6:51 AM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/12 1:36 AM TO: TOM BALLARD (DMKB86A) FROM: DALE ARMSTRONG (MVJG33A) SUBJECT: P$ PRICING PLANS Tom-- I believe I promised to send you the phone number for the National Videotext Network (NVN). Sorry to be so long in getting around to it. It is 800-336-9092, but don't tell Charlie Marston I passed it around. I understand that for $5.95 a month, you get unlimited use of the BBs 24 hours a day and 60 E-mails per month. I've also heard there are 50-55 forums on NVN. If you try it out, please give me a review. As for access numbers, my good neighbor Stew Williams sent me a list of 8 local access numbers in Kansas City. --Dale in Blue Springs, MO (P.S.-- I thought the NVN phone number I gave you was for voice, but I just dialed it and got a computer tone. You may have to dial it on your modem. I've been told there is also a voice phone, but I don't have it.) PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/17/93 7:45 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/16 10:44 AM TO: ALL FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Well folks, I have posted all the info I have right now. Unless someone has question, I think I will let this subject die for now. The sun is setting on Prodigy. I still plan to read WOMEN AND AUTHORITY, DRAWING DOWN THE MOON, and MORMONISM MAGIC AND MASONRY this summer. If I find anything of interest before July, I will certainly post it. bugs and worms proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/17/93 7:46 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/16 10:57 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: BONNIE WRIGHT (FVNM12A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS proclus; as the sun sets in one area, it is dawn in another. bonnie (awaken at last ) PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/17/93 7:46 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/17 9:13 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: S RITCH (NNGP39C) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS Proclus - I would just like to let you that I have enjoyed reading all of the posts regarding this subject. I hope that it has and will help all of us in our quest of understanding the religious beliefs of others, and as such to become more tollerant of one other. If you have any questions or just want to come over and visit, you are more than welcome (as everyone is) to travel to the Wicca BB. Light & Love. *S* PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/17/93 7:46 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/17 7:17 PM TO: BONNIE WRIGHT (FVNM12A) FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS bonnie Goddess bless you and your oddessy. proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 06/17/93 7:47 PM RELIGION TOPIC: LATTER-DAY SAINTS TIME: 06/17 7:17 PM TO: S RITCH (NNGP39C) FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) SUBJECT: MORMO{WICCANS *S* Love and stuff back to you! Do you have PODS? I may see you there, if I can get my long distance charges straightened out. Druids in Brookline proclus To: MICHAEL LOVE Date: 11-23-93 From: EARTH MATER Time: 22:03 Subject: initiation Conf: WITCHES (107) -------------------------------------------------- ML> Sounds pretty smart, eh? Seriously though, I'll post some of the ML> material I have. If you like it, I'll post more. Yes, please. ML> Wicca. By the way, do you have any recommended readings for ML> wet behind the ears witches? One of the books I like is "Whispers" by Raven which is about Strega which is Italian Witchcraft. He has a number of mental exercises in there which I think are good. Scott Cunningham "Wicca for the Solitary Practitioner" must be good - it has left my house twice never to return. Theology is rather loose amongst the Pagan community - definitely noone standing around proclaiming that if you dont believe something you will go straight to he**. "Drawing Down the Moon" has a feminist bend, but is a good survey of the Craft across the US. ML> Joseph's working groups were called "anointed quorums". It ML> is now clear that these groups bore all of the earmarks of a ML> modern witch coven. Is this what you would like to hear ML> about? Yes. This is most interesting. By the way, what are the earmarks of a modern witch coven? ML> Bridget and the fifty poocahs What's a poocah? ... I tried to contain myself, but I escaped. --- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR] * Origin: The Funny Papers * Lodi, NJ * (201)478-8476 (60:201/2) --------------------------------------------------Wiccans}Mormonism1 ================== PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/93 9:08 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 01/30 5:55 PM TO: ALL FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Once in a while I hear from someone who didn't get in on the discussions of this subject and want to know about it. Is this a dead horse, or is there anyone out there who wants to further discuss the MormoPagan parallels and/or join the Coven. There are currently seven of us by my count. anointed quorum proclus PS>>>>>>>>>> The discussion occured in the following subjects; MORMONS ARE PAGANS}Frank Dis CHURCH OF PAGANS}Latter Day Saints PAGAN BOOTS}Latter Day Saints PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/93 9:09 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 01/31 8:23 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Mike, Golly gee whiz. What a surprise to find your name under this topic heading. YO! Kathleen made an observation the other day while she was at the temple. They came up a few hands short when forming the prayer circle around the alter. So the prayer leader recruited a few more people. And what was the minimum number needed to complete the circle? Twelve. When you include the prayer leader, it makes thirteen. Was this an accident, or does the prayer circle require a certain number of participants? \/ Andrew /\ PS book & tapes should arrive monday or tuesday. enjoy. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/93 9:10 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 01/31 8:23 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: ROBERT SIMS (GBNG72A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Mike: Yeah. I got involved in a Mormon cult called the "Druidic Craft of the Wise" that tried to pass itself off as Wiccan. They claimed to be Wiccan yet the theology taught was Mormonism. If you questioned it you were considered a heretic. ------bob PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/93 9:11 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 01/31 4:25 PM TO: ROBERT SIMS (GBNG72A) FROM: MARK REYBURN (RSHD06A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Sounds like the Eliites - had them around the Cities (MPLS-STPL), too. My wife was trained by a breakaway priest of theirs. She still has some weird ideas! Brand of Spiral Ash 01/31/93 10:11 PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/93 9:11 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 01/31 6:12 PM TO: MARK REYBURN (RSHD06A) FROM: ROBERT SIMS (GBNG72A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Mark: Yep. Grandmaster Eli aka Barney Taylor. --bob PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/93 9:12 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/01 11:53 AM TO: MARK REYBURN (RSHD06A) FROM: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Yup. Grandmaster Eli (Barney C. Taylor) invented Druidic Craft of the Wise. His training material is quite amazing.... Domi PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/93 9:13 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/01 2:32 PM TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A) FROM: JAMES PETERSEN (XWWG12A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Andrew: Re: 12 in prayer circle: rather than launching into numerology on this, I'll bet it has more to do with how many people they've found it takes to close the circle around the space containing the altar and the officiator without everyong having to stretch into some non-religious positions. Just a guess. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/93 9:13 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/01 8:26 PM TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A) FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Andy Thanks for the stuff! I don't know about the minimum number of people for a prayer circle. Maybe James is right. Wouldn't it be nice to have a pet temple president that you could keep around and ask questions? I understand that covens tend to remain small and personal. practical proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/93 9:14 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/01 8:26 PM TO: ROBERT SIMS (GBNG72A) FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM ------bob Dogmatism runs rampant in Mormonism. I am not surprised when I hear about it in off shoot groups. None of the Mormo-Pagans that I have met on *P* are linear thinkers, thank Goddess! I'd like to hear more about these Eliites or whatever they are. the dance proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/93 9:15 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/01 8:41 PM TO: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A) FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Domi Hi! How have you been? Thanx for the PODSNET info. I had thought to use it instead of Prodigy, but one of my buddies could not get access. It seems that a Utah connect got disconnected. Oh well. Can you give me some idea regarding these marvellous Eliite teachings and some source>>>>>>>>>>> materials? Alpha Book Center and Reverend John proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/93 9:15 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/01 8:41 PM TO: JAMES PETERSEN (XWWG12A) FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM James Nice suggestion. Magick must be practical. second anointing proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/93 9:16 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/02 9:35 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: DIK BROWN (GJKH70B) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Michael: of God...LOVE: God...Michael Love...Love God..LOVE and around and around you go....nothing linear there... So, ... what is this corner about? Obviously I just walked in...What part of the Universe are you hung in?...What is your gig?...What, if any, structure do you have for this subject? The raison de'tre, please. Directions? I'm lost! You can give it to me straight or bent; I don't care. Dik PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/02/93 9:16 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/02 7:44 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: ROBERT SIMS (GBNG72A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Mike: The Eliites or DCW IMO are a group that claim to be Wiccan yet the theology and spiritualism is Mormon.You have a group that teaches about Kolob, Celestial, Terestial, and Telestial worlds etc. which is right from Mormonism. I view it as a covert Mormon organization that is trying to reach out to those who have no religion or those who are>>>>>>>> disenchanted with their own. Not that there is anything wrong with Mormonism I however do not like religious groups that go by another name. There are people paying money for religious training, yep, that think they are learning Wicca when in reality they are learning Mormonism. I also find it disturbing that those who cannot pay are excluded. To me God is not for sale. --bob PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/03/93 8:07 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/03 8:32 AM TO: ROBERT SIMS (GBNG72A) FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Bob, The main body of the Mormon church, if it knew of these people, would certainly want to have nothing to do with them.....not because of the money thing, but because they would see them as mainly pagan {a sort of competition, if you will} and would want them gone. \/ Andrew, religious /\ anti-trust. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/03/93 8:07 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/03 5:45 PM TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A) FROM: DREW O'LEARY (HWSX36C) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Actually, Eli aka Barney Taylor was kicked out of the Morman church and went out and did his own thing. He died a few years back, so I don't know who's taken over for him. BTW, I am another who was (gladly) kicked out of this group for questioning and searching elsewhere. Drew PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/06/93 6:37 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/05 5:30 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM I have copies of Eli's first and second books of wisdom; about 400 pages or so. Don't have the third book or the stuff on sacredotal concubinage.... Domi PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/08/93 0:06 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/06 6:39 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: ROBERT SIMS (GBNG72A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Mike: It's far from positive. ----bob PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/08/93 0:11 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TO: GBNG72A SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM DATE: 02/08/1993 ---bob I know that you think these people are dogmatists. That's bad, but a lot of people are dogmatists; maybe even a few Mormons and Wiccans. I really don't agree with the dogmatic approach, but I do find these people interesting. We have something to learn from everyone. heretic proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/08/93 0:13 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/07 1:33 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Positive? I'm positive Eli was a fake and a fraud. I've met some awfully nice folks who studied with him, though. Domi PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/08/93 0:13 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/07 1:42 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Eli was noted for his concubines..... Domi PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/08/93 0:14 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/07 9:21 PM TO: ROBERT SIMS (GBNG72A) FROM: MARGARET GOULD (HNRV82A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Could someone tell me what the "Druidic Craft of the Wise" is? I have been both Wiccan and Mormon and find this reference interesting. I have noticed over the years that a lot of former Mormons became Wiccans and that a lot of ex-Wiccans often turned to Mormonism. Just curious about this. Thanks Margaret in Ga. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/08/93 0:18 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TO: HNRV82A SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM DATE: 02/08/1993 Margaret Many of us have noticed this traffic between Wicca and Mormonism. It is particularly interesting in light of the historical and ritual similarities that we have been able to dig up. I don't know about the Druidic Craft of the Wise, and it appears that many are loathe to talk about it.proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/09/93 6:49 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/08 7:47 AM TO: MARGARET GOULD (HNRV82A) FROM: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Druidic Craft of the Wise is a religious group started by Grandmaster Eli (Barney C. Taylor), who had been kicked out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Eli taught Mormon theology mixed with "druidic" and "witchcraft" material he made up out of thin air ("wicca" from "ouija", for example, "the Sanscrit word for wise"). It is not druidic or wiccan; neither is it Mormon at this point. Eli was noted for his concubines and his sex magic; he claimed to be a Cherokee Druid (VBG) and to have been on Eisenhower's staff during WWII and to have been a member of several British Druid organisations, most of which don't exist and the others of which he was not a member.... Domi PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/09/93 6:49 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/08 11:18 AM TO: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A) FROM: STEVE WILSON (RGBM20A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM "Made up out of thin air"?Some folks call that divine inspiration.. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/09/93 6:50 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/08 2:08 PM TO: STEVE WILSON (RGBM20A) FROM: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM I don't see Eli as inspired, but if he was, I wish he had labeled what he came up with by a name other than those of existing religions.... Domi PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/09/93 6:51 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/08 4:27 PM TO: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A) FROM: ROBERT SIMS (GBNG72A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Domi: The Eliites "Mind Science" can be refered to as "BrainWashing". There are some who believe that the Druidic Craft of the Wise" is a covert Mormon group that is trying to infiltrate Wiccadom. People think they are learning Wicca but instead they are learning Mormonism. Its too bad that you cannot do hardly anything in>>>>> DCW without paying, paying, paying. Did you ever see the movie "Ticket to Heaven". If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck it probably is a duck. Isaac Bonewits was right on his definition of what a cult is. If you disagree you are considered a heretic and are shunned. IMO DCW is just a scam. ---bob PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/09/93 9:43 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/09 12:45 PM TO: ROBERT SIMS (GBNG72A) FROM: DOMI O'BRIEN (VMKP97A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Bob-- I'm sorry you were burned by DCW; please remember that sincere seeking is all it really takes to find the Gods; and only They initiate. Everyone: a group that asks you to contribute to cover photocopying etc may be fine. A group that wants you to PAY to learn Craft is in violation of Craft law. Domi PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/09/93 9:50 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TO: ALL SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM DATE: 02/09/1993 Thanx to everyone for the great info on the DCW! I'll go with the idea that Reverend Eli has been discredited, for now. Does this mean that there are not Mormo-Wiccan parallels that are worth discussing? I have some original material in this vein if anyone wants to hear it. discredit me! proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/10/93 6:32 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/10 12:34 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: ROBERT SIMS (GBNG72A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Mike: Sure. Lets discuss the elements and their use. -b PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/20/93 10:58 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/14 2:20 PM TO: LAURA LOKEN (DPNG73C) FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM -------------------Welcome to the Coven!------------------- Perfect love and perfect trust, laura Thanx for your story. You ask, "how exactly do you merge mormonism and paganism?" That's the BIG question and I have enough info on it to boggle anyone's brain. Just hang around here for a while. (Loved your post in HEAVENLY MOTHER, by the way.) I want to address the human aspect of your post first. All too often people get the impression that Mormonism is a closed system with no room for creativity or free thought. As you say, we are often told that "this is the only true church, and that other religions are irrelevant to 'good' LDS folks." This idea is put forward by well meaning, but misguided individuals who think that they are somehow doing the Church a favor by promoting it. History and comparative religion can add depth to our gospel understanding. Now, I am sure that you will agree with me that many members are among the sweetest people imaginable. No problem there. I've wanted to meet someone like you for a long time. There are a lot of former Mormons in pagan, wiccan, and occult circles. Are you new to the on-line community? If so, look out! You are already making waves out there. What you post in sincerity will be labeled by dogmatists, probably in this very thread. What an irony. Pagan Mormons >>>>>>>>>>>> cry out against paganism. And it makes me wonder! There are plenty of different models for explaining the pagan parallels with Mormonism. The canned apostasy model just doesn't cut it. For example, it doesn't explain the fact that new mormonish groups arise from time to time, isolated from Mormonism. Well, I have just one more sloppy, unsophisticated thing to say. Please don't leave the Church. Mormonism is big enough to encompass all truth, if we let it. Pagans are on the march within the Mormon community. There aren't many of us, but as Andy said, "The pagans are alive and well in the Mormon church, and they are moving forward, armed with some of the strongest testimonies and purest motives that can be found in any religion today." We need you. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/20/93 10:59 AM I hope I didn't scare you off. Would you like to hear more? proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/20/93 10:59 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/15 7:57 AM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Mike, Did I really say that? Eeeek, I guess I did. An employee of mine, who left the Mormon church at age 14, recently embraced WICCA in a big way. I must confess that I did an awful lot to point him in that direction, and I am glad that I did. I think that WICCA will do this young man a lot of good. I enjoy listening to him tell me about the latest thing that he has learned about the craft, and then pointing put their Mormon parallels. But it bugs him, because it interferes with his desire to hold a low opinion of Mormonism. Oh well. Do you think that this fellow would have been willing to dive into WICCA if it weren't for the Mormonism hiding in his background? What if he had been raised Xtian? \/ Andrew, /\ reluctant guru. PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/20/93 11:00 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/15 8:24 PM TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A) FROM: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Andy Yes yes YEEES! uh, I mean, Mormonism was a "new age religion" before people knew what that meant. People with a strident, non-conventional streak are attracted to both sects. go wierd now proclus PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/20/93 11:03 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/17 2:12 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: LAURA LOKEN (DPNG73C) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Proclus! i found it--i found it! yeah, huzzah! and thank you for the welcome. yes, i would like to discuss the parallels between the religions with you--i'm intrigued with the idea, but a little sceptical. i still attend church--but i hold a barrier of scepticism and defense there. to me the LDS church is a half-religion--to me it is a man's church, with man's scriptures, with male deity--very imbalanced. the whole concept of a hierarchy and priesthood brings out some strong power play issues, which can be very dangerous i believe in the message that this projects to the members. that men hold authority and power over women and children; it is not said outright, but implied in its very structure and doctrines. i have always, since childhood had a difficult time accepting this. so i don't. i don't know if i want to stay in the church--while i was still vulnerable to its limited view of women, i always felt a wave of oppression come upon me when i entered the building, almost making breathing a laborious chore--i be- came very depressed during this time. i'm not so easily affected by its influence, but going to church is far from a pleasant and spiritual experience. even if i accepted the church, i don't think i would enjoy attending church. the people are very sweet and i go out of my way not to say anything contrary to their beliefs so not to offend, but i don't enjoy their company--we don't relate, and i'm tired of concealing myself and beliefs like a hypocrite. i crave to be in an environment where i am valued, and my questions and perceptions are treated with respect, where learning and not trite little maxims are considered as answers to serious, thought-provoking questions. i feel kind of limited there-- perhaps i expect too much. i don't mean to sound so terribly negetive all of the time, but i've had negetive experiences with the church. i have been on the brunt of intolerence and judgement from leaders, which hurt me a great deal. i have been on pro- bation for over a year and a half--and am invisible when i'm there--the deacons don't even offer me the sacrement anymore but pass right by me. i am a non-person who plays piano in sunday school, where my efforts are insignificant and meaningless. i don't see the use of trying to offer the bond that ties me to the church--music--when no one is affected by what i have to offer. i don't see much value in staying in the church. i want to learn more about the history and PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/20/93 11:03 AM pagan roots that you've found in it, but i don't want to keep going to church. i go out feeling hypocritical and dis- appointed--and that's no way a person should feel when going to church. i guess i went into all of this, is to basically warn you that i'm sceptical of the church--still curious, but very cautious. and that perhaps in future conversations that i might be argumentative. i wanted to let you know where i'm coming from. i have to go now; i just got the book 'spiral dance' not long ago--i'll read up on it, so that we have some common ground for discussion, and i'll keep my eyes out for the others. have you ever read 'the great cosmic mother' by Sjoo and Mor? Very interesting & informative book. thanks for your fellowship of me here. Love & Light, Laura PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/20/93 11:04 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/17 5:19 PM TO: MICHAEL LOVE (BXXF11A) FROM: BOBETTE PESTANA (SJCT62A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Proclus - I've suspected that there were lots of members who quietly disagreed with lots of things. I have been very much attracted to Mormanism. I feel like I know so many on board. I've even come close to joining - but can't REALLY believe it. Looks like it is possible for born Mormons to stay, but do people JOIN with reservations? My way of life is so similar and I really need community. My biggest stumbling block is coffee - I know, once I was a member I could drink it - but to join I'd have to say I had quit.... You can see I don't have much of a testimony. Just a "burning" when I get on board. OTOH I sure like the concept of Goddess. At least I'm open minded. 02/17 05:04 pm *Granny Bobette* PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/20/93 11:05 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/18 9:22 PM TO: LAURA LOKEN (DPNG73C) FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Laura, Your description of what it feels like to enter the church building (hard to breath, etc) sounds very familiar. I suffer the same problem. I have no real urge to push people either toward the church or away from it, but I would like to share one observation. >>>>>>> The church is slowly changing its attitude toward women and children. This change will become more pronounced in coming years, and it is happening because of people like you. Do you think the church will change policy (or even doctrine) because they want to? NO!! They change because a number of people in the church have chosen to become squeaky wheels. Read DIALOGUE or SUNSTONE and you will see what I mean. See if you can obtain a copy of WOMEN AND AUTHORITY: RE-EMERGING MORMON FEMINISM. You will love it. If ya gotta leave, leave. If yer gonna stay, make a difference. But whatever you do, avoid orthodoxy like the plague!!!! \/ Andrew /\ PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/20/93 11:05 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/19 7:57 AM TO: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A) FROM: LAURA LOKEN (DPNG73C) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM hi Andrew-- thank you for writing. so i'm not the only one who feels a shortness of breath when entering the church? wow--i don't quite feel so alone. i thought i was getting more and more mentally deranged or something! so tell me, if you don't mind me asking, why does this happen to you? i would like to know if you would like to share. do you know who the publisher is for this book: Women & authority? is it in bookstores, or would i get it through a catalog? indeed, i would very much like to read it. i've been on a book binge lately--trying to reach some sort of understanding of this existance, ya know? and i'd be inter- ested in reading this one too. i've noticed a little more awareness towards women, and some issues: with the emergence of women's conferences with some informative classes. i've also read a book that i was impressed with; it was taken from a women's conference at BYU in '91 i believe. i was heartened with these things, but the church experience every week is still...difficult for me. right now, i still attend church--i live at home with my parents still, which is the most financially feasable plan for me right now, as i'm a single parent and full-time college student. my parents are quite adament that i go to church while i live under this roof, so i oblige them to maintain some level of civility here at home. i guess that this adds to my feelings of negetivity towards the church, as i feel more coersion dumped on me to deal with. philo- sophically, i could be more open to learn the history & doctines of which i'm not learned, than i am with the mormon culture and orthodoxy. which is why i am here. so you really believe that the church will continue to go through progressive changes paralleling the evolving aware- ness of women's spirituality? i have been voicing some of my concerns to the bishop of the ward--but he doesn't seem to understand why i am dissatisfied with the manner in which women are conceptualized in the church. he doesn't get it. and i'm frustrated. i'm thinking of doing a little homework and writing it all out for him--i feel more comfortable communicating in writing than i do in an interview type exchange of ideas. so that is what i would like to do. there are some other issues that bother me, which the bishop is also aware of--i imagine he thinks me to be quite the deviant! i am bothered with the church's stand on PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/20/93 11:06 AM homosexuality. with plural marraige. with colored people. with the study of other religions, especially of pagan/wiccan religions--i was told outright not to learn about it, but i cannot stop. i trust my instincts which tell me to learn all i can. i feel quite uncomfortable when i'm there at church because i must hide who i am, and my questioning nature. i want to be able to pride in who i am, and walk in complete integrity and honesty--i don't feel that church is a safe environment to do this. sometimes i just want to come bolting out of the closet and say, "yes, i'm a bisexual wanton wicked wiccan woman, and i love life! problem? well then, work it out!" but...i don't; i just bide by tongue, and wait. for what, i'm not sure; i just wait. anyways, Andrew, nice chatting with you--i look forward to doing it again. Love & Light, Laura PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/20/93 11:07 AM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 02/20 8:35 AM TO: LAURA LOKEN (DPNG73C) FROM: ANDREW MCGUIRE (FKSP88A) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM Laura, Gads, I never have figured out why I feel so oppressed when I go to church. I think that a small part of it relates to the fact that I have had too many dealings with ward members in the "real world" and I have found them wanting in their integrity. Or maybe I feel guilty because I know that I am the same way at times. I am also bothered with the general apathy of members. They just show up to be seen or to fullfil some duty, not to grow closer to god. Sum it all upWiccans}Mormonism2 ================== with the word "superficial." Wicca, on the other hand, is a belief system that you can't live on a Sunday only, facade based system. It drives deep into the heart of your actions, ethics and relationship with diety. It forces you to face the person that you are and resolve it with the image of the person that you want to be. It forces growth, a feat that is wanting in Mormonism. As to the book, WOMEN AND AUTHORITY, it is available from Signature Books, Salt Lake City. You might be able to get it from Deseret Book {ha ha}. A better bet would be Seagull Book and Tape or even B. Dalton or Barnes and Noble (where I got mine). If you have no luck, scream, and I will see if I can help you obtain it. Then there is your Bishop. Does the phrase "beating your head against a brick wall" mean anything to you? If he wants to know where you stand, tell him frankly. But I really wouldn't try to bring him around to your way of thinking. It is not the poor man's job to indulge in original thought or non-orthodoxy. Given your present position in life, I guess you will just have to endure. But there is nothing to stop you from seeing and reading beyond what is presented in church lessons and talks. I find occasional comfort in listening to a lesson in sunday school and feeling the warm glow of knowing the deeper background and doctrine behind (or beyond) what is being taught. And there are times when the stuff that is being left out just happens to be........... .......pagan. For example, what is "pngt" mentioned in D&C 8:4? In the original version of this scripture the "pngt" was Oliver's talent with the divining rod. This fact was convenienlty PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/20/93 11:07 AM edited out of our current edition of the D&C. Try THAT one on your bishop. I think if you look hard enough, you will find the key to making your forced church attendance endurable....maybe even enjoyable. There is a bit of the goddess to be found \/ and enjoyed in all people, even us stuffy Mormons. /\ PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/22/93 5:22 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TO: DPNG73C SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM DATE: 02/22/1993 Laura Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I'm a student and a hubby and a daddy and a hacker. Life gets busy. I think I know how you feel about going to church. I felt similar feelings a few years ago. Church was boring and unchallenging. All the little members seemed so shallow and so concerned with trivialities. I would just sit there and stew in my blackest of moods. I have to say that they haven't really changed, but I have. Thank Goddess for St Andrew! He introduced me to Prodigy, which revivified my religion. Because of the challenging discussions here, Mormonism is now vital and interesting for me again. Subjects like this one gave me some space to really dig into subjects that I wouldn't bring up in church. We don't need permission from ANYONE to discuss ANYTHING.>>> What a relief! This is not to say that I am satisfied with the Church. There are some real problems in Mormonism. Unrighteous dominion is the inevitable result of the current structure of the Church. The all-male corporate hierarchy is increasingly out of touch with the membership. The eye at the top of the pyramid is getting very near-sighted. Meanwhile, the Church is courting the world. The leadership is promoting a slick, and squeaky clean public persona that denies the unique and challenging aspects of our colorful heritage. I'm glad to hear that you are interested in these wonderful historical events that are being brushed under the rug in SLC. We won't let them be forgotten. For example, the Nauvoo period is very instructive. Joseph started up small working groups for the purpose of spreading the temple rites. These were powerful egalitarian groups that enjoyed marvelous blessings, men and women alike. Joseph ruled the Church from within these bodies for a time. After his death, the Twelve reasserted their ruling power.>> That was the real beginning of all male, corporate leadership in the Church. Joseph's working groups were called "anointed quorums". It is now clear that these groups bore all of the earmarks of a modern witch coven. Is this what you would like to hear about? PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 02/22/93 5:22 PM proclus ps No, I haven't read 'the great cosmic mother'. The only Wiccan material I have read is "THE SPIRAL DANCE". I was thinking about doing "Drawing Down the Moon" this summer, but would appreciate any suggestions for readings that would increase my knowledge of Wicca. Thanx All! PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service 03/05/93 10:36 PM RELIGION TOPIC: RELIGIOUS ISSUES TIME: 03/05 9:17 AM TO: ALL FROM: LAURA LOKEN (DPNG73C) SUBJECT: WICCANS}MORMONISM 'allo! 'allo! i'm back! and i'm ready to gab! or listen--whatever the case may be--i'm waiting with heady anicipation about these Mormon/Wiccan parallels finally! oh, and by the by, have any of you read the book "the mormon murders" by Steven Naifeh & Gregory White Smith? very interesting. --Laura Visit MutantRMs LE FastCounter